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Coltrane's Africa/Brass album

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Topic: Coltrane's Africa/Brass album
Posted By: Sean Trane
Subject: Coltrane's Africa/Brass album
Date Posted: 15 May 2012 at 2:21am
Marked as Bop or Hard BopUnhappy
 
Definitely nothing "bop" about that album... Post Bop is best, IMHOWink


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my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicted musicians to crazy ones....




Replies:
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: 17 May 2012 at 3:37am
I dare say that Olè Coltrane should bear that Hard Bop tag as well

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my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicted musicians to crazy ones....



Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: 18 May 2012 at 2:10am
Actually, looking at the full Trane discography (the release while he was alive) in JMA, all the pre-ALS albums are tagged Hard Bop, and only ALS is tagged post bop, and everything else after ALS is called avant garde until his death (I agree with that part)...
 
For the posthumous releases, it seems the tagging is more varied, but I'd tag First Impressions and Transition as post-bop
 
But I think that most of his Impulse! works should be tagged post-bop... I'm less sure of his Atlantic recordings, but Olé is certainly post-bop.


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my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicted musicians to crazy ones....



Posted By: Kazuhiro
Date Posted: 18 May 2012 at 2:40am
This is a personal opinion. Therefore, this opinion is not the opinion that JMA decided.

At first it will be necessary to consider understanding with a comparison between Hard Bop and Post Bop. It is a genre derived by Hard Bop if I read a definition of Post Bop advocated by JMA. This is a main premise as a definition.

An element included in Post Bop includes some parts next.
1. A theoretical expanse.
2. Shortening of the space and time.
3. A definition by musician oneself.
4. It is slightly the fusion with other genres.

The definition may be surely difficult.

"Africa/Brass" is Hard Bop as my personal opinion. If I consider an album of Coltrane announced from 1961 in chronological order and hear it, a hint will be hidden.
The album which I announced after Coltrane withdrew from Miles Band has music based on Bop.And "ALS" was announced in 1965. And it is necessary for us to listen to the album of Miles Davis which we developed by Be-Bop descending from Bill Evans at the same time. The time when Miles Davis established Post Bop was the time when Wayne Shorter just joined it. It was the dawn of Post Bop definitely.

However, I think that there is an element of Hard Bop in particular in the early days of the 60s if I consider an album of Coltrane in conjunction with a definition at the same time. And "ALS" was a turning point definitely if I thought about announced time. Coltrane would continue a challenge for the music until I arrived here. However, I think that there is still "Africa/Brass" and "Ole" in a level of Hard Bop.

How do you think?


Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: 18 May 2012 at 3:37pm
Sorry, but this is much more than an opinion...
I think one must remain constant from one artiste to another...
 
If Mingus' Dynasty, Ah Hum, Tijuana Moods are called post bop, and Miles' second qunitet albums (as early as 7 steps To Heaven) are tagged Post bop as well and a lot of Hancock's 60's albums (Empyrean, Maiden or Child)  are also post-bop
 
then Coltrane's  Olé, Africa/Brass, Impressions, Crescent are much more advanced in the modal dept than anyone of those I menntioned (Mingus might be an exception, but barely)
 
Simply becaise Trane's work is much more modal than Mingus', Herbie's or Miles'
 
 
Yes, some of Trane's early 60's albums are still hard bop (the Prestige label albums, for ex), but classifying all of the pre-ALS albums as hard bop is downright misleading
 
as for
 
An element included in Post Bop includes some parts next.
1. A theoretical expanse
. >> Check
2. Shortening of the space and time. >> Check
3. A definition by musician oneself. >> Check
4. It is slightly the fusion with other genres
.>> Check, Check, Check ,Check

 




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my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicted musicians to crazy ones....



Posted By: Kazuhiro
Date Posted: 19 May 2012 at 12:38pm
Possibly this may have already advanced towards going too far in saying. Robert Fripp and Allan Holdsworth said. The expression about the music is limited when I decided a subgenre. I understand this opinion to some extent. However, the listener and the mass media made a lot of subgenres for sales promotion and an index. And the listener is often confused in a subgenre. The musician works at a place beyond the imagination of the listener. Therefore, it may be nonsense that we finally use a subgenre. However, we love music and argue in this way. If you do not yet understand, please give an opinion in this thread. I will hear the opinion.


Posted By: Kazuhiro
Date Posted: 19 May 2012 at 12:50pm
OK. My opinion may be wrong. The PA has a section of "Post Rock". It did not feel me with pure RocknRoll to listen to Post Rock. Do you think that it is pure Be-Bop and Hard Bop to listen to Post Bop? Please compare it. "Africa/Brass" and "Ole" are still Hard Bop for me.


Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: 19 May 2012 at 1:54pm
Post-bop
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Post-bop is a term for a form of small-combo http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jazz_music" rel="nofollow - that evolved in the early-to-mid sixties. The genre's origins lie in seminal work by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Coltrane" rel="nofollow - , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miles_Davis" rel="nofollow - , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Evans" rel="nofollow - , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Mingus" rel="nofollow - , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wayne_Shorter" rel="nofollow - and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbie_Hancock" rel="nofollow - . Generally, the term post-bop is taken to mean jazz from the mid-sixties onward that assimilates influence from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_bop" rel="nofollow - , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modal_jazz" rel="nofollow - , the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avant-garde_jazz" rel="nofollow - , and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_jazz" rel="nofollow - , without necessarily being immediately identifiable as any of the above. The term is a fairly recent coinage and (like " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_soul" rel="nofollow - ") was not in common use while the genre was active.
 
John Coltrane
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
Davis and Coltrane again

Coltrane rejoined Davis in January 1958. In October of that year, jazz critic http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ira_Gitler" rel="nofollow - coined the term " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheets_of_sound" rel="nofollow - " to describe the style Coltrane developed during his stint with Monk and was perfecting in Davis' group, now a sextet. His playing was compressed, with rapid runs cascading in hundreds of notes per minute. He stayed with Davis until April 1960, working with alto saxophonist http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannonball_Adderley" rel="nofollow - ; pianists http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Garland" rel="nofollow - , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Evans" rel="nofollow - , and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wynton_Kelly" rel="nofollow - ; bassist http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Chambers" rel="nofollow - ; and drummers http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philly_Joe_Jones" rel="nofollow - and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimmy_Cobb" rel="nofollow - . During this time he participated in the Davis sessions http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milestones_%28Miles_Davis_album%29" rel="nofollow - Milestones and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kind_of_Blue" rel="nofollow - Kind of Blue , and the live recordings http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miles_%26_Monk_at_Newport" rel="nofollow - Miles & Monk at Newport and Jazz at the Plaza. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Coltrane#cite_note-ALLMUSIC-4" rel="nofollow - At the end of this period Coltrane recorded his first album for http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_Records" rel="nofollow - , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giant_Steps" rel="nofollow - Giant Steps , made up exclusively of his own compositions. The album's title track is generally considered to have the most complex and difficult chord progression of any widely-played jazz composition. Giant Steps utilizes Coltrane changes. His development of these altered chord progression cycles led to further experimentation with improvised melody and harmony that he would continue throughout his career. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Coltrane#cite_note-ALLMUSIC-4" rel="nofollow -

First albums as leader

Coltrane formed his first group, a quartet, in 1960 for an appearance at the Jazz Gallery in New York City. After moving through different personnel including http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Kuhn" rel="nofollow - , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pete_Sims" rel="nofollow - , and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_Higgins" rel="nofollow - , the lineup stabilized in the fall with pianist http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCoy_Tyner" rel="nofollow - , bassist http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Davis_%28bassist%29" rel="nofollow - , and drummer http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elvin_Jones" rel="nofollow - . Tyner, from Philadelphia, had been a friend of Coltrane's for some years and the two men long had an understanding that the pianist would join Coltrane when Tyner felt ready for the exposure of regularly working with him. Also recorded in the same sessions were the later released albums http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coltranes_Sound" rel="nofollow - Coltrane's Sound and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coltrane_Plays_the_Blues" rel="nofollow - Coltrane Plays the Blues .

Still with Atlantic Records, for whom he had recorded http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giant_Steps" rel="nofollow - Giant Steps , his first record with his new group was also his debut playing the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soprano_saxophone" rel="nofollow - , the hugely successful http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Favorite_Things_%28album%29" rel="nofollow - My Favorite Things . Around the end of his tenure with Davis, Coltrane had begun playing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soprano_saxophone" rel="nofollow - , an unconventional move considering the instrument's near obsolescence in jazz at the time. His interest in the straight saxophone most likely arose from his admiration for http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidney_Bechet" rel="nofollow - and the work of his contemporary, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Lacy" rel="nofollow - , even though Miles Davis claimed to have given Coltrane his first soprano saxophone. The new soprano sound was coupled with further exploration. For example, on the Gershwin tune "But Not for Me", Coltrane employs the kinds of restless harmonic movement ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coltrane_changes" rel="nofollow - ) used on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giant_Steps" rel="nofollow - Giant Steps (movement in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_third" rel="nofollow - rather than conventional http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfect_fourth" rel="nofollow - ) over the A sections instead of a conventional http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turnaround_%28music%29" rel="nofollow - progression. Several other tracks recorded in the session utilized this harmonic device, including "26–2," "Satellite," " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_and_Soul_%28song%29" rel="nofollow - ", and " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Night_Has_a_Thousand_Eyes_%28jazz_standard%29" rel="nofollow - ".

 
 
First years with Impulse Records (1960–1962)
In May 1961, Coltrane's contract with Atlantic was bought out by the newly formed http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impulse!_Records" rel="nofollow - label. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Coltrane#cite_note-5" rel="nofollow - - Rudy Van Gelder , who had taped both his and Davis's Prestige sessions, as well as Blue Train. It was at Van Gelder's new studio in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Englewood_Cliffs,_NJ" rel="nofollow - that Coltrane would record most of his records for the label.

By early 1961, bassist Davis had been replaced by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reggie_Workman" rel="nofollow - while http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Dolphy" rel="nofollow - joined the group as a second horn around the same time. The quintet had a celebrated (and extensively recorded) residency in November 1961 at the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Village_Vanguard" rel="nofollow - , which demonstrated Coltrane's new direction. It featured the most experimental music he'd played up to this point, influenced by Indian http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ragas" rel="nofollow - , the recent developments in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modal_jazz" rel="nofollow - , and the burgeoning http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_jazz" rel="nofollow - movement. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Gilmore_%28musician%29" rel="nofollow - , a longtime saxophonist with musician http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_Ra" rel="nofollow - , was particularly influential; after hearing a Gilmore performance, Coltrane is reported to have said "He's got it! Gilmore's got the concept!" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Coltrane#cite_note-6" rel="nofollow - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Coltrane#cite_note-7" rel="nofollow - During this period, critics were fiercely divided in their estimation of Coltrane, who had radically altered his style. Audiences, too, were perplexed; in France he was famously booed during his final tour with Davis. In 1961, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Down_Beat" rel="nofollow - Down Beat magazine indicted Coltrane, along with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Dolphy" rel="nofollow - , as players of "Anti-Jazz" in an article that bewildered and upset the musicians. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Coltrane#cite_note-8" rel="nofollow - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ornette_Coleman" rel="nofollow - , which was also denigrated by some jazz musicians (including Miles Davis) and critics. But as Coltrane's style further developed, he was determined to make each performance "a whole expression of one's being". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Coltrane#cite_note-9" rel="nofollow -  

 


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my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicted musicians to crazy ones....



Posted By: Kazuhiro
Date Posted: 20 May 2012 at 11:16am
OK. Thank you for information. I did not use much Wikipedia. All people felt that all people might edit the history of the jazz because they had authority to edit about Wikipedia.Smile At first "Africa/Brass" was the album which I announced because Coltrane let you slightly express the music using Big Band. Coltrane said. It is an album I am accompanied by Big Band in "Africa/Brass", and to play it. It is expression and the practice that I always thought about. " He surely performed a lot of plan and live of the music such as Duke Ellington at this time. It is all. And he speaks about "ALS". "ALS" is a few presents for God. " He has already devoted himself to Einstein and Indian philosophy at this time. I said before, but there is the part which the definition of Post Bop is very difficult, and is vague. And "ALS" already thinks me to be a turning point of the music for him. An album after "ALS" thinks me to be spiritual jazz not AG jazz if I say closely. However, JMA does not have the spiritual jazz section. I think that his expression that I performed in 1961 when I added a point and the expression that he had was music based on Bop and Hard Bop.


Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: 28 May 2012 at 5:58am
Insisting a bit, but this has NOTHING to do with hard-bop or Bebop
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddlh2VMfGqY&feature=related" rel="nofollow -
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddlh2VMfGqY&feature=related
 
Neither does this
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8J4YZwFa_1w&feature=related" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8J4YZwFa_1w&feature=related
 
or this: (from the album Impressions
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztDKYI6tVjk&feature=related" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztDKYI6tVjk&feature=related
 
or even this: (from the album Coltrane)
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-yU4-bYjlg&feature=related" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-yU4-bYjlg&feature=related
 
 
===================
 
 
just in case, this may be a mosern version of it, but this is what hardbop sounds like (and most of it shares a lot of similarities)
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JcIinPGoJxg" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JcIinPGoJxg
 
or this
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JcIinPGoJxg" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JcIinPGoJxg
 
 
 
 
 
 
 


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my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicted musicians to crazy ones....




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