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chuckyspell View Drop Down
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Points: 76 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chuckyspell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jul 2011 at 8:04am
Originally posted by js js wrote:

A three note stack consisting of a tritone and a 4th, or vice versa is the sound of modern jazz starting with Monk and then Tyner, Evans, Herbie etc.
So what would the chords look with the intervals inverted in the stack?
Boy I think I really need Jazz Pianist's article on functional harmony!
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I've listened to Dance of the Maya many times over the years
I have the MIDI
 
What makes the intro all the more different is its time signature.
E7#9-A7-F#M7b5-G7-Dm then repeating substituting the Dm with a tritone G#M7b5
then everything is carried up a 4th
then it's closed off with C#m9/Eb-CmM7b5-C#7b9-A/Bb-B7b9


Edited by chuckyspell - 29 Jul 2011 at 1:13am
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Points: 34274 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote js Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jul 2011 at 12:33am
Since you play guitar you might enjoy trying McLaughlin's "Dance of the Maya", its a blues progression, but voiced so it sounds abstract, great piece to play on the guitar. I have a book that has that in it. Its not real hard, but not super easy either.
I mostly play RnB and RnB/jazz keyboards, but I play some guitar too.
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I play guitar but I admire piano/keyboard players like Art Tatum, Chick Corea, Herbie Hancock, Hiromi Uehara, Jan Hammer, McCoy Tyner and Thelonious Monk. And I'm always trying to work on my harmonic sensibilities.
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Points: 34274 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote js Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jul 2011 at 12:16am
Monk probably wasn't the first, I'm sure Art Tatum, Ellington and Bud Powell used these too.

What instrument do you play?
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Looking back at your example I see that's what you're doing.
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A three note stack consisting of a tritone and a 4th, or vice versa is the sound of modern jazz starting with Monk and then Tyner, Evans, Herbie etc.
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Originally posted by js js wrote:

This one is dissonant, but still in your original functional harmony:

C in the bass with E Bb Eb voiced in the right hand
G in the bass, slide that right hand up a half step to F B E
A in the bass with G C# F# in the right hand
F in the bass, slide the previous notes up a half step to G# D G

 You have to voice it the above way to sound cool, but what you have is: C7 #9     G13    A13    Fm9 add6  
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Thank you!
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This one is dissonant, but still in your original functional harmony:

C in the bass with E Bb Eb voiced in the right hand
G in the bass, slide that right hand up a half step to F B E
A in the bass with G C# F# in the right hand
F in the bass, slide the previous notes up a half step to G# D G

 You have to voice it the above way to sound cool, but what you have is: C7 #9     G13    A13    Fm13


Edited by js - 28 Jul 2011 at 11:51pm
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Thanks so far!
What are some other suggestions if I wanted to go for the jugular in an avant garde or bop way?
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Points: 34274 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote js Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jul 2011 at 1:18pm
Here's another Steely Dan type variation on your original:

Bb Maj/C         FMaj/G         em7/A     am7/F
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If you're just trying to dress up some U2 changes, try that first variation I dropped off, it will put the song into modern pop-jazz territory similar to EW&F and Steely Dan. You'll still be able to hear the initial progression too, just more modern and 'jazzy'.
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Originally posted by js js wrote:

Originally posted by js js wrote:

By the way, I bet you could write some good album reviews.  Wink
 
LOL Don't have the jazz maturity for that yet.
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Originally posted by Jazz Pianist Jazz Pianist wrote:


Your initial chord sequence is ok, however it doesn't really serve itself to substitutions as it kind of ignores pythagoras's pendulum model. I'd suggest changing the order around so that the G is at the end of the sequence.

 
As it's a band situation and I'm more of a hired gun not the band leader, I'm not in a position to make changes to the progression. It's what I've got to work with. Blame it on U2 "With or Without You". That's why I really want to toy around with it.
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Originally posted by js js wrote:

By the way, I bet you could write some good album reviews.  Wink
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Originally posted by js js wrote:

In most modern (post 40s) jazz, a fully diminished chord is like a substitute for a dominant 7th and would probably be spelled out like a 7th with a flat 9, but just a plain fully diminished seventh chord without any extra tones is going to sound dated.
Originally posted by js js wrote:

Fully diminished chords aren't usually used in modern jazz (since about the early 40s) they sound pretty square compared to the other more complex chords you are using there.
Like jazz pianist said, they were great for in house organ players when accompanying old horror movies Shocked
Try looking into half-diminished chords ie f# a c e etc, which will supply a much more modern sound that would jive better with your modern extended chords.
 
OK cool!
As the saying goes "You gotta learn something every day."
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Originally posted by Jazz Pianist Jazz Pianist wrote:


You mean vi (or vim)?

None of this really works man, I can tell by looking at it (with the greatest of respect to you)

- First chord is along the right lines of tertiary substitution (substitution by thirds), however there is one note that clouds its identity as a diatonically functioning chord, and that's the B natural, the 5th of E7. Because C is the route of your chord, for it to sound nice you need to treat it like a C7 chord, using notes from E7 to spice it up. As mentioned above, the only issue is the B natural, and to make the chord function as a nice dominant, just flatten it. Your new chord would be E7(b5)/C, or otherwise known as a C9(#5).

-The next chord would work fine for an unresolved effect, however personally I'd keep the F in the bass and make it a minor 9, just a suggestion.

- I don't really understand the context of this chord (f#dim) unless you are modulating to Gm, which you don't in the next chord. Maybe think this over a little bit more? Diminished chords have a very special place and mostly function as a hollow type dominant as a substitute for chord V, e.g. you're F# diminished would work nicely as a substitute for D7 in G minor, so long as it wasn't an final cadence. You can't really dot them around anywhere in diatonic harmony...

- Unless you are purposely trying to create something that sounds horrific (horror movie composers use this bad boy all the time), then this chord has pretty much no function, because the parent chord and the root note are a tritone apart. Minor chords don't have a tritone relationship like dominant 7th chords do!

Your initial chord sequence is ok, however it doesn't really serve itself to substitutions as it kind of ignores pythagoras's pendulum model. I'd suggest changing the order around so that the G is at the end of the sequence.

As for effective substitutions in western harmony, I'll be posting an article of mine on them in the next few days, referring to all the most commonly used substitutions (including tritone and tertiary) plus some harmony basics, so I'll link you here. Also feel free to inbox me
 
So for a I - V - vim - IV chord progression what would you play?
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In most modern (post 40s) jazz, a fully diminished chord is like a substitute for a dominant 7th and would probably be spelled out like a 7th with a flat 9, but just a plain fully diminished seventh chord without any extra tones is going to sound dated.

Edited by js - 28 Jul 2011 at 12:21pm
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Fully diminished chords aren't usually used in modern jazz (since about the early 40s) they sound pretty square compared to the other more complex chords you are using there.
Like jazz pianist said, they were great for in house organ players when accompanying old horror movies Shocked
Try looking into half-diminished chords ie  f# a c e  etc,  which will supply a much more modern sound that would jive better with your modern extended chords.


Edited by js - 28 Jul 2011 at 12:15pm
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Originally posted by js js wrote:

I see, I went back to your original, it sounds good with some really extended harmonies, but I don't get the diminished chord it seems out of place. Do you mean a fully diminished 7 chord ie   f# a c d#
 
Yes that's what I meant.
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