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Derek Bailey, Evan Parker, et al

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Katje View Drop Down
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    Posted: 21 Apr 2011 at 2:44am
Not an error as such, but been trawlin' through the avant-garde section of the site and noticed Derek Bailey in this section. Of his solo works I think most would fit more comfortably in the 'Jazz influenced improvisation'. Evan Parker is less clear cut flitting back and forth tho' much of the time teetering on the cusp of both free jazz 'n' free improvisation. Is there the feature of multiply tagging? These are just two big examples, but there's a sizable 'grey area' (as the genre definition mentions) when discussion free-jazz, free improv, efi, etcetera.   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote js Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Apr 2011 at 5:25am
Each album has its own tag, so some artists have multiple tags, check Miles Davis for a good example.
The difference between JR Improv and AG Jazz has a lot to do with background.
AG Jazz musicians come from a jazz background and are often quite capable of playing traditional jazz and usually have done so in the past. They are often grouped with jazz musicians in resource books as part of the jazz establishment.  
Jazz Related Improv is more for musicians from non-jazz or eclectic backgrounds who, at times, play a music similar to AG Jazz. Fred Frith for example. 
As far as I know, Bailey and Parker come from a jazz background and are well accepted by the jazz establishment as "jazz musicians".


Edited by js - 21 Apr 2011 at 5:26am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Katje Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Apr 2011 at 6:22am
Cool, just trying to get a bit more of a grasp of this sites views on the matter, as my personal line of where Jazz (the avant-garde kind) stops in this grey area is a little further up the road (so it seems). From the above explanation would AMM, Spontaneous Music Ensemble, Gruppo d'Improvvisazione Nuova Consonanza, et cetera fall under the avant-garde jazz flag?     



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Henry Plainview Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Apr 2011 at 7:26am
 
Originally posted by Katje Katje wrote:

Cool, just trying to get a bit more of a grasp of this sites views on the matter, as my personal line of where Jazz (the avant-garde kind) stops in this grey area is a little further up the road (so it seems). From the above explanation would AMM, Spontaneous Music Ensemble, Gruppo d'Improvvisazione Nuova Consonanza, et cetera fall under the avant-garde jazz flag?   

I personally would be hard pressed to fit AMM in with the other music in avant-garde jazz, but it also seems like there should be room for them on here somewhere. I've been meaning to make a thread to discuss the borders of free improvisation and JMA, but I haven't gotten around to it yet. While I can understand why you might think Derek Bailey is not jazz, he and Evan Parker are almost 100% accepted as free jazz musicians.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Katje Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Apr 2011 at 8:15am
Yeah, might be good to open another thread or something. Regarding Evan Parker I'm more comfortable about his positioning than Bailey's solo works (I think many his collaborative works are a different story). His solo guitar albums, especially his earlier ones were far more interested in the capabilities of his instrument (hard not to see Keith the influence, tho' not quite so far removed from the instrument itself), experimenting with timbre, tones 'n' unorthodox techniques (bad terminology but hopefully explanatory enough), which to me cut the line between avant-garde/free jazz, and free improvisation, whose key language is rooted in experimentation.

Sorry, this is all poor articulated, 'tis time for bed.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote js Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Apr 2011 at 8:19am
Originally posted by Katje Katje wrote:

Cool, just trying to get a bit more of a grasp of this sites views on the matter, as my personal line of where Jazz (the avant-garde kind) stops in this grey area is a little further up the road (so it seems). From the above explanation would AMM, Spontaneous Music Ensemble, Gruppo d'Improvvisazione Nuova Consonanza, et cetera fall under the avant-garde jazz flag?     




We would have to deal with those bands one at a time, off the top of my head though, I think those are JR/Improv bands.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Henry Plainview Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Apr 2011 at 9:04am
 
Originally posted by Katje Katje wrote:

Yeah, might be good to open another thread or something. Regarding Evan Parker I'm more comfortable about his positioning than Bailey's solo works (I think many his collaborative works are a different story). His solo guitar albums, especially his earlier ones were far more interested in the capabilities of his instrument (hard not to see Keith the influence, tho' not quite so far removed from the instrument itself), experimenting with timbre, tones 'n' unorthodox techniques (bad terminology but hopefully explanatory enough), which to me cut the line between avant-garde/free jazz, and free improvisation, whose key language is rooted in experimentation.

I'm not extensively familiar with either one's discography, but I don't see any relationship between the music of Keith Rowe and Derek Bailey. But I know what you are saying, Derek Bailey's primary early influence was Webern, he does not sound much like Albert Ayler and Ornette Coleman, and Derek himself seemed to want to think of what he did as "non-idiomatic improvisation" rather than anything else. But the rest of the world already decided that Derek Bailey played free jazz, so we have to live with that label. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Katje Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Apr 2011 at 2:18am
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We would have to deal with those bands one at a time, off the top of my head though, I think those are JR/Improv bands.


Okay. That's where I would place them too. I assume the Jazz related section is of secondary priority to the full blown Jazz artist at this point time?

Originally posted by Henry Plainview Henry Plainview wrote:


...But the rest of the world already decided that Derek Bailey played free jazz, so we have to live with that label. 

I might have to bow my head to history then Tongue Instead we'll have to make amends to your Bailey collection Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote js Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Apr 2011 at 6:47am
Go ahead and bring them on one at a time, some listening examples and a link with a little info really helps speed things up.
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