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idlero View Drop Down
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    Posted: 17 Apr 2011 at 1:52am
Can we talk about  European Jazz as something different from the American jazz?
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snobb View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote snobb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Apr 2011 at 2:02am
I think they both have much in common, but each has own specific face as well. First difference I often feel is European jazz usually doesn't have such groove as American, and often is influenced by classical music. For sure there are always exemptions , but I 'm speaking about more common characteristics
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote idlero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Apr 2011 at 2:28am
I think that a lot of the European Jazz (at least the European jazz I listen to) belongs to the Third Stream and Nu Jazz genres.Most of the "nordic" jazz is athmospheric.
Most of the jazz promoted by ECM is also "more European" in style.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote snobb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Apr 2011 at 2:33am
ECM and Nordic jazz are two "schools" with quite specific sound, but besides of them, there are plenty of classic (and folklore) influences in European jazz in general. You know Romanian jazz much better than me - there are strong folklore influence (and classic tradition) almost in any musician's release. Very similar situation is with all Balkan jazz (and far not only).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote idlero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Apr 2011 at 2:39am
That's interesting, I never thought of the nordic jazz as "ethnic/folklore" jazz ( maybe because I am not familiar with that folklore), but probably it has also a certain degree of  local folklore influences.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote snobb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Apr 2011 at 2:44am
Two strong influences on Nordic jazz are Edward Grieg and Nordic folklore Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote harmonium.ro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Apr 2011 at 5:26am
Slava, I keep seeying you mentioning folk in your reviews of "nordic" jazz, but I've never heard any trace of folk in those records. What "nordic folk" influences exactly can be found in these records?

But that's true about Romanian and Balkan jazz, it's stuffed with traditinal folk music from the area.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote snobb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Apr 2011 at 6:08am
I believe you know how different SE European and Nordic folk is by its nature. When you listen Molvaer's debut (and some early works) or big part of Jan Garbarek's albums (not his early avant-garde jazz, but later world fusion period), you can hear strong Nordic folk influences. 
Don't expect heavy rhythms or hot melodies, Nordic folk is very aerial.



And there is a n example which demonstrates the music somewhere in between of two genres: Lithuanian folk singer Veronika Povilioniene sings with jazz keyboardist Dainius Pulauskas:


Not a authentic folk already, but still not world fusion as well. And you can hear plenty of sounds characteristic for Jan Garbarek's music for example Smile


Edited by snobb - 17 Apr 2011 at 6:28am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote snobb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Apr 2011 at 6:42am
And it is not only about Balkan or Nordic jazz, almost all European jazz is influenced by national folklore. 

Excellent Hungarian band Djabe:

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote harmonium.ro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Apr 2011 at 11:39am
Thanks Slava, I'll investigate. I confess I have no idea how Scandinavian folk sounds, which is why I was curious for actual examples. German folk is similar to saxon / celtic folk as far as I know, but I don't think German folk has any relevance for Scandinavia.

I know Djabe, they have Hungarian folk influences but other world music influences too. Hungarian/Transylvanian folk is so popular in modern / contemporary music because it had the luck of having such a major composer like Bartok investigate it and interpretate it, making it universaly known and appreciated.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote triceratopsoil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Apr 2011 at 1:34pm
I thought Scandinavian folk was half polka
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote harmonium.ro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Apr 2011 at 4:09pm
I was just thinking, might there be a Krautrock / psychedelic rock influence on European, Scandinavian / ECM jazz? The ECM style in particular reminds me of Popol Vuh's In den Garten Pharaos and Hosianna Mantra. Or maybe it was the other way around?

Edited by harmonium.ro - 17 Apr 2011 at 4:10pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote snobb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Apr 2011 at 4:45pm
Possibly some early krautrock influenced early ECM sound, during early 70s there were some psychedelic AG jazz ECM releases (as early Garbarek for example)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote harmonium.ro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Apr 2011 at 7:26am
Originally posted by snobb snobb wrote:

 


Hmm, this Finnish choir is very interesting. Sounds EXACTLY like Romanian church choirs. It's true that Garbarek's idea to mix Gregorian chant with jazz could be traced to such a tradition.

From wikipedia:

Its most important form is called runonlaulanta ("poem singing" or chanting) which is traditionally performed in a trochaic tetrametre using only the first five notes on a scale. Making use of alliteration, this type of singing was used to tell stories about heroes like Väinämöinen, Lemminkäinen and Kullervo. The songs were memorised, not written down, and performed by a soloist, or by a soloist and a chorus in antiphony (see: Kalevala). Vantaa Chamber Choir sings these poems in modern arrangements.



Originally posted by snobb snobb wrote:



And there is a n example which demonstrates the music somewhere in between of two genres: Lithuanian folk singer Veronika Povilioniene sings with jazz keyboardist Dainius Pulauskas:


Not a authentic folk already, but still not world fusion as well. And you can hear plenty of sounds characteristic for Jan Garbarek's music for example Smile



That was beautiful. Heart
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Aug 2011 at 6:29pm
Originally posted by idlero idlero wrote:

Can we talk about  European Jazz as something different from the American jazz?
 
There are some bits and pieces that are "distinctive", although for today's standards, instead of 50 years ago, I would say that it has levelled off a lot, because of the internet and the ability of everyone being able to hear everyone else and do something ... thus the ability to do something more "local" and "individual", is likely to not be as easy to find as it is today, compared to what things were like then.
 
The DVD on Tom Dowd has an amazing history of the recording of records and how it got started in America. And when you hear it, you will see 20 years slip right by you, and his comments are really interesting ... he even said, and thought that a lot more experimental and different things were being done in the earlier days, whereas today, too much of it is almost too composed and preset for a specific set of instructions and/or details in music that will bring the band together again ... a concept that Miles Davis himself is usually given credit for starting.
 
While that experimental side of the very early jazz was there, the far out thing was that it was not necessarily acquainted with pop music, or classical music, or anything that was known at the time in terms of music history and its concepts. And I think (<<<--- "think") that later, when the movie studios took over the recording business, that a lot of this music was dropped and forgotten about because it's own stars had more selling power than many of these "jazz" and "black" musicians that were mostly associated with a few spots in America and not exactly known, or appreciated anywhere else, but ... in the big city, let's say, and even then, the appreciation was limited because there was no "intelectual" discussion or appreciation of the music anywhere to be found and this is where many of the names that eventually became the big label names were so important ... but you and I can not quite name one or two that were there in the 50's ... which tells you that there is a lot of that history that is still buried ... waiting for Dr. King's dream to come alive!
 
European jazz, to my ears, has more in it, that one can find in classical music and other music histories that are peculiar to any areas in Europe ... like Germany has its own bits, England its own, Greece its own, Poland its own and so forth ... something that is difficult to discuss without people feeling that their cultural heritage is being attacked. The compositional side of it, has a lot more in common with classical music, than the American early designs for jazz did ... and I think that a lot of it has to do with the history of music in Europe and the fact that is what you learn first in school before you set out to learn the instrument that you end up with. But, there is one thing that Europe is capable of doing that America is not ... in a teaching environment, no less ... music schools that KNOW the history of music and are not afraid to find ways to ... study and learn ... new music's ... and what became known as "krautrock", also had just as many bands that were doing jazz in what might also be considered a different context than what we're used to hearing and discussing. And some of these, like "Between" and a few other bands, are not exactly ... an easy listen for most of us ... they are so different ... or even another example, albeit English, like the early Soft Machine stuff intentionally doing "jazz ragas" ... by making sure that the themes and ideas did not repeat to ensure the continuation of the music "experience", which happened to be a good thing for those days in the 60's ... get stoned and get experienced.
 
There are, unlike America, a lot more mixes in European jazz, and you have to admit that the proximity of each country to another  ... you find, for example, in lots of the so-called progressive music a lot of jazz licks, and you can even go check out Pink Floyd, where Richard Wright is probably the guiltiest of them all, but not the only one ...  you can find Terje Rypdal's taste for classical music in his guitar playing ... it's really very classical in its implementation, and quite visible in his early albums ... but because "Odyssey" sounds like "jazz" we did not notice how the instrument was used.
 
The last part, is the important one ... that should not be considered "jazz" ... it's really hard to think of Keith Jarrett, for example, as "jazz", or "classical" or anything else ... simply stated he is about a free form thing that defies description but is, in essence, a lot closer to a classical music piece, than it will ever be "jazz" ... even if he uses a set of notes or chords, that is usually associated with jazz ... and to me, this is where the definitions break down and die quickly ... because, there are times when our definitions hurt artists ... big time ... by bundling them in a place, where ... most do not listen to that kind of stuff ... and like many Europeans, Keith has a classical streak in him, and I think that he works hard to bury it and make sure no one can see it, or have any idea where it is, or isn't -- I doubt it because he has a very sensitive "feel" that has more to do with expression than it does notes or any music out there ... and this is the danger ... of us trying to represent music by one feeling and not another ... and as such, the music definition ends up drying up, and losing its flavor, and eventually ... it's fans!
 
Now you know me ... born in Europe, lived in Brazil and then America ... music is different in different places, but in the end ... it's "MUSIC" ... not jazz, or rock or anything else ... and I really think that taking the labels out of it is important to creativity ... or it all sounds the same ... and you and I will be bored sh*tless!
 
  ... it was a bit individualistic, but then, freedom usually starts out that way! ...


Edited by Moshkito - 23 Aug 2011 at 6:44pm
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Frederic_Alderon View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Frederic_Alderon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Nov 2018 at 3:12pm
Here is the lovely list of the top artists, on Last FM:
https://www.last.fm/tag/european+jazz/artists
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