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Who Was The Better Composer

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Topic: Who Was The Better Composer
Posted By: Matt
Subject: Who Was The Better Composer
Date Posted: 06 Apr 2011 at 4:01pm
Just thinking about a review I might do soon on Wayne. He wrote some awesome stuff. Sorcerer , Nefertiti, he wrote nearly the lot. What about "Sanctuary" from Bitches Brew. Miles had his greats though too , don't forget the entire "Kind of Blue" , also Miles or Milestones, depends on the edition of Milestones you own, "Sid's Ahead is on that album too. Something to ponder and we need a Poll Big smile

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Matt



Replies:
Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: 06 Apr 2011 at 4:21pm
Interesting, I'll have to think about it. The Second Great Quintet stuff is mostly Wayne Shorter, and Kind of Blue was mostly Bill Evans

Miles did compose some of the best pieces of jazz throughout his history though. I dont know, I'll have to think about this and maybe do a little research (listening) before i vote. Good poll though.


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http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm


Posted By: js
Date Posted: 06 Apr 2011 at 6:09pm
Miles was great at concepts, new directions and fusing elements, but Shorter is the better writer in my opinion.


Posted By: Kazuhiro
Date Posted: 06 Apr 2011 at 6:58pm

I think Wayne Shorter offered a good song to a band of Art Blakey already in enrolled time as a personal opinion.

I like an enrollment album of (Shorter - Hubbard - Fuller) in particular.



Posted By: andyman1125
Date Posted: 06 Apr 2011 at 6:59pm
Gotta say Miles.


Posted By: Matt
Date Posted: 06 Apr 2011 at 7:24pm
I went for Shorter too. More consistent and prolific. Sorceror was what made me ask the question because I like the album for the reason that Shorter did write a lot of it. Bitches Brew is too dragged out for me. When I do play it I always make sure I hear 'Sanctuary",  "Miles Runs The Voodoo Down" by Miles is my other fave of it. Yep Disc 2 for me Wink

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Matt


Posted By: andyman1125
Date Posted: 06 Apr 2011 at 7:33pm
MRTVD is genius Cool


Posted By: Polo
Date Posted: 07 Apr 2011 at 3:03pm
Davis is miles ahead of Shorter.

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That's Kenny G with Miles Davis on my avatar, by the way.


Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: 07 Apr 2011 at 5:19pm
After some consideration, my vote goes to Miles as well

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http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm


Posted By: The Truth
Date Posted: 10 Apr 2011 at 5:59pm
Miles solely because of Go Ahead John on Big Fun.
 
Because of this, he is the greatest jazz composer of all time. Geek


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Posted By: Krilons Resa
Date Posted: 18 Apr 2011 at 3:24pm
Compositionally speaking, Shorter > Miles.

Miles was a master of putting the right people together and coming up with new ideas to further take jazz into different directions.  He was an innovator.


Posted By: peskypesky
Date Posted: 18 Apr 2011 at 5:03pm
Miles, because he wrote "Willie Nelson" AND "John McLaughlin". 


Posted By: Cannonball With Hat
Date Posted: 18 Apr 2011 at 10:40pm
Originally posted by js js wrote:

Miles was great at concepts, new directions and fusing elements, but Shorter is the better writer in my opinion.
 
I agree with this.


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Hit it on Five.

Saxophone Scatterbrain Blitzberg

Stab them in the ears.


Posted By: The Manticore
Date Posted: 20 Apr 2011 at 5:44pm
Originally posted by js js wrote:

Miles was great at concepts, new directions and fusing elements, but Shorter is the better writer in my opinion.
 
Yeah, that's the way I see it too.


Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: 21 Apr 2011 at 9:48am
Originally posted by js js wrote:

Miles was great at concepts, new directions and fusing elements, but Shorter is the better writer in my opinion.
 
Me like.....


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My jazz collection....a work in progress.


Posted By: akaBona
Date Posted: 07 May 2011 at 12:15pm
Miles


Posted By: The_Jester
Date Posted: 29 Dec 2011 at 10:43pm
Miles was awesome. He made arranged jazz with real themes and melodies and stuff and it wasn't pop-jazz or light jazz. It was full jazz but with arrangements, incredible.


Posted By: MilesBeyond
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2012 at 7:49pm
It was a tough choice, but I ended up going with Miles. Even though his stuff tends to be a bit light on the compositional side (i.e. he usually wrote "sketches" rather than actual jotting out music), this is the very reason why he got my vote. He pioneered a style of writing that I think freed up jazz and allowed instrumentalists to express themselves in unheard ways.

Of course, compositionally speaking I think they both pale in comparison to the likes of Monk and the big Duke himself, but they were nonetheless both quite good at what they did.


Posted By: dreadpirateroberts
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2012 at 8:48pm
Originally posted by MilesBeyond MilesBeyond wrote:

It was a tough choice, but I ended up going with Miles. Even though his stuff tends to be a bit light on the compositional side (i.e. he usually wrote "sketches" rather than actual jotting out music), this is the very reason why he got my vote. He pioneered a style of writing that I think freed up jazz and allowed instrumentalists to express themselves in unheard ways.

Of course, compositionally speaking I think they both pale in comparison to the likes of Monk and the big Duke himself, but they were nonetheless both quite good at what they did.


Yeah, nicely put!
I went for Miles too, as covers a wider range of styles he has the advantage there too


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We are men of action. Lies do not become us.
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Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: 02 Jan 2012 at 3:58am
I'd vote Miles, but one has to know that Miles appropriated himself some of the tunes on his albums that were other's labour.... His writing and playing skills were not that fabulous.... Miles' main qualities were elsewhere... He was more of hap^pener, creating the moments and occasions for things to happen... therefore the man was more more an event artistes than a purely creational (hopefully, you guys will understand where I'm getting at because it's not that easy for me to make it clearEmbarrassed) .... he felt things out a lot more than most others.... but often, on the technical or virtuosity side, he was just a tad more than average
 
Miles had indeed questionable work ethics and rules a bit as a tyrant (a bit like Mingus did too)
 
But between Miles & Wayne, I'll go for Miles


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my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicted musicians to crazy ones....



Posted By: darkprinceofjazz
Date Posted: 09 Feb 2012 at 5:56pm
Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:

I'd vote Miles, but one has to know that Miles appropriated himself some of the tunes on his albums that were other's labour.... His writing and playing skills were not that fabulous.... Miles' main qualities were elsewhere... He was more of hap^pener, creating the moments and occasions for things to happen... therefore the man was more more an event artistes than a purely creational (hopefully, you guys will understand where I'm getting at because it's not that easy for me to make it clearEmbarrassed) .... he felt things out a lot more than most others.... but often, on the technical or virtuosity side, he was just a tad more than average
 
Miles had indeed questionable work ethics and rules a bit as a tyrant (a bit like Mingus did too)
 
But between Miles & Wayne, I'll go for Miles
  I Believe a clear line needs to be drawn between early Miles and later Miles, Clearly his trumpet work was not much better than average compared to Gillespie or Clifford Brown for instance, Though his tone and use of space, can not be overlooked, But later period Miles, from Seven Steps to Heaven on, he was no slouch, and it is quite startling hearing his technique improve throughout the Mid to late 60's on into the electric music, compared to the early 50's, he certainly was way above average, if not in the elite,


Posted By: darkprinceofjazz
Date Posted: 09 Feb 2012 at 8:56pm
Originally posted by Matt Matt wrote:

I went for Shorter too. More consistent and prolific. Sorceror was what made me ask the question because I like the album for the reason that Shorter did write a lot of it. Bitches Brew is too dragged out for me. When I do play it I always make sure I hear 'Sanctuary",  "Miles Runs The Voodoo Down" by Miles is my other fave of it. Yep Disc 2 for me Wink
I can't  believe I missed this thread, I really have a hard time understanding the debate on Davis vs Shorter, While I freely admit, Shorter is a great Composer, and possibly the real driving force of the Second Great Davis Quintet, it's certainly not as if Davis was a non factor composition wise, or playing wise either, we are talking about a man who was indeed so prolific, he participated in the development, and broke new ground, In Cool Jazz, Hard Bop, Modal Jazz, orchestrated jazz with Gil Evans, the second great quintet and all the electric period music, when I think about On the Corner, Get Up with it, Big Fun, and Dark Magus, this music hasn't been fully deciphered yet, and is heavily influencing Modern bands like elephant 9 and Jaga Jazzist and on and on and on, Simply Put, from 1945 on, just telling the story of Miles is like telling the story of Jazz itself. As far as Wayne is concerned, no slight intended, believe me, but even he hasn't done whole lot since 1975 that I think to much of, Weather Report burned out quick, and his own solo stuff after 1975 is average at best, some is drivel, Even Miles weaker 80's music eclipses anything Wayne did in the 80's or 90's for that matter, Shorter's quartet albums and Alegria were high quality, but not ground breaking in any way. Wayne is a great Saxophonist who has contributed many standards to the genre, In closing, I have always felt that the Davis 68-75 period of Music, will 100 years from now be looked at in higher regard than even Kind of Blue, I mean that music still sounds fresh and ahead of it's time, even in today's world in some respects, there really is no comparison between Shorter and Davis.

my humble opinion of course.




Posted By: Matt
Date Posted: 11 Feb 2012 at 1:56pm

What brought the idea for this thread around was particulary the two albums "Sorceror and "Nefertiti". Miles did not use one composition of his own. Wayne Shorter provided 50% + of the material on both with the other band members adding some as well. I was thinking more Bop than Fusion as Wayne's Blue Note albums are nothing to be sneezed at either. I agree that Miles Davis will be remembered far above Wayne Shorter but Wayne wrote some beauties before the seventies. "Speak No Evil", "Night Dreamer" are fab albums.

Miles wrote nearly all the Fusion material that came after starting with "Filles de Kilimanjaro" but still "Sanctuary" is real highlight off Bitches Brew being the only one from Wayne on the album.
 
I am not a Weather Report fan myself all that much but always liked Wayne's Bop whatever it is, Hard or Post.
 
I am stuck a little pre-seventies in Jazz you know. I only recently found out that Sonny Rollins was still cutting albums in the seventies. WinkBig smile


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Matt



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