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Hard bop or hardly bop?

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Topic: Hard bop or hardly bop?
Posted By: js
Subject: Hard bop or hardly bop?
Date Posted: 26 Jul 2016 at 9:37am
In this thread, Ashley, myself and whoever else wants to join in will be discussing the trials of the genre tag man as he tries to decide the age old question, ... hard bop or post bop. Stern Smile

Drop off some samples Ashley and lets discuss them. 



Replies:
Posted By: dreadpirateroberts
Date Posted: 27 Jul 2016 at 8:21am
Okay! Ace idea for a thread - here's the first one, it's by Ryo Fukui from 1976, a trio recording:

Early Summer

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUGM9ikbBDw" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUGM9ikbBDw



My first thought was that it might fit Post Bop because it had more of an 'arrangement' perhaps - rather than being like the straight-ahead, charging feel I notice in a lot of Hard Bop - but there's some aspects (of the music/scales for one) etc that I've missed, that would have helped me categorise it better :)

Your thoughts, John?






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Posted By: js
Date Posted: 27 Jul 2016 at 9:08am
The top link works, but not the video link, for those who are playing along at home.

First lets establish the ground rules. when we are looking for hard bop, we have two things in mind:
1) The blues (or gospel), especially minor key blues.
2) straight ahead driving rhythm, usually swing based, but not always.

This cut provided, "Early Summer" is a tough one and a good choice.
As you know, the album that this comes from, "Scenery" is tagged Hard Bop, but this track is a little different.

The album tag remains hard bop, and some would tag this song as hard bop, but I would tag this song as post bop, although it is not a clear case.
Harmonically speaking this is 'modal jazz', in other words they are jamming in one key, or mode (G Dorian) instead of following chord progressions. Modal does not determine genre as post bop, hard bop or fusion tracks can all be modal. Still, I don't hear much blues here, so I would tag the song post bop, but it could be tagged hard bop too, and not be way off.

On a side note, there are some interesting hybrid rhythms here, which is often the case in Japanese jazz. This piece does not actually 'swing' in the way we would normally think of swing rhythm, which could also push its tag towards fusion, but still post bop remains the best compromise.

This track is a good example of how difficult genre tags can be. Geek

Re arrangements: The presence of arrangements is crucial to both big band genres and 3rd stream, but otherwise it is not part of any other genre definition.
Hard bop, post bop and fusion can all have complicated arrangements.




Posted By: dreadpirateroberts
Date Posted: 28 Jul 2016 at 12:35am
Fixed the video, finally! Back to chat more in a few hours :D


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We are men of action. Lies do not become us.
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Posted By: dreadpirateroberts
Date Posted: 01 Aug 2016 at 9:47am
Great answers! :)

I found it especially interesting re: the arrangements (maybe it shows how much progressive big band I've been listening to lately? :D) and the way the compromise between modal/fusion for it to end up as 'post'.

And it's interesting also how much this piece stands out compared to the rest of the album too. I'm pretty happy I stumbled across it actually - oddly enough, it was just a random youtube recommendation!


Will have another song to post tomorrow :)


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We are men of action. Lies do not become us.
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Posted By: js
Date Posted: 01 Aug 2016 at 11:25am
Re the arrangements: I think its worth adding that post bop pieces are more apt to have elaborate arrangements than a hard bop piece, but its not really a defining characteristic.


Posted By: dreadpirateroberts
Date Posted: 03 Aug 2016 at 5:10pm
Okay, here's another piece :) 

This one feels like Hard Bop without being particularly 'driving' but I wonder if there's anything else going on that I can't pick up on as a non-musician? For instance, Empyrean Isles is a Post Bop album of course, and I considered posting One Finger Snap instead, as a clear Hard Bop piece, but thought that Oliloqui Valley might be worth a look too?




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We are men of action. Lies do not become us.
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Posted By: js
Date Posted: 03 Aug 2016 at 5:32pm
Yeah, that one is right in between. I'd probably call that hard bop, but it does have those more abstract harmonies too. It could easily be tagged post bop.
To me, that's hard bop that is leaning towards post bop.

One thing to keep in mind, as the main genre tagger on the site, I have my own criteria for determining genres, but not all the different jazz sites are the same.
I notice some sites have a broader definition for hard bop. For them, almost any swing based jazz with a straight ahead rhythm is hard bop.


Posted By: dreadpirateroberts
Date Posted: 27 Nov 2016 at 4:12am
Back! Sorry about the huge delay - still enjoying this :)

Okay, how about Gazzelloni on Out to Lunch?





Post? Seems like one of the tracks with a more 'bop' feel?


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We are men of action. Lies do not become us.
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Posted By: js
Date Posted: 27 Nov 2016 at 5:00am
Thanks, love this album, but I will have to wait until I get home later today to hear the track.


Posted By: js
Date Posted: 27 Nov 2016 at 5:50pm
The Dolphy cut definitely gets the post bop or Avant-garde tag, but you're right, there is a lot of Parker and Gillespie on that one, as well as a good dose of Ornette too.
The 'whole new thing' thats happening on this cut is all the time changes or 'metric modulations', the brilliant drummer Roy Haynes could move all over the place and still swing. 

In today's world, that cut could be tagged 21st Century Modern, this album, along with a lot of things by Dolphy's running mates like Mingus and Chico Hamilton, could be considered forerunners of today's jazz.


Posted By: dreadpirateroberts
Date Posted: 13 Dec 2016 at 7:37pm
Originally posted by js js wrote:

The 'whole new thing' thats happening on this cut is all the time changes or 'metric modulations', the brilliant drummer Roy Haynes could move all over the place and still swing.


It's amazing, huh? Must take some real compartmentalizing to do that :)


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Posted By: dreadpirateroberts
Date Posted: 13 Dec 2016 at 7:49pm
Okay!

Got another one, from Peter Knight - this whole album of his has got a 'cool' vibe but I still wouldn't call it a 'cool' album. In this track the 'scattered' drumming, which is not a good descriptive at all, gives some of the rhythm a more 'halting' feel at times that I associate with post bop where sometimes song structure is more 'chopped' up (again, not the best descriptors perhaps lol) The beats I'm thinking of often feel like they're built around fills and improv rather than laying something down that the rest of the musicians can solo over for long stretches.

Peter Knight - Eunoia (2006)







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Posted By: js
Date Posted: 13 Dec 2016 at 8:10pm
Cool jazz quit being a genre back in the mid 60s, even if something is kind of 'cool', we wouldn't use the term 'cool jazz' anymore.
This cut could be used as a text book example of post bop, the rhythm swings, but in a sort of fractured way, the chord changes are abstract with the extended harmonies etc., plus a 3/4 feel a lot of times. The drummer favors Tony Williams for sure.


Posted By: liontime
Date Posted: 22 Apr 2017 at 4:45pm
Hello! I don't mean to insert myself into an old thread but I remembered looking at this thread when it was made and not having any input at the time.

But now I have a question! Speaking of the line between hard bop and post bop, I'd like to approach from the other side and see where the line between post bop and avant-garde/free jazz is.

Paul Bley's album "Paul Bley with Gary Peacock" is listed as avant-garde jazz on here and I was wondering how it got that designation as I would have personally placed it in the post bop area of things. It's not a straight forward album by any means, but it's definitely not as free as many other ECM albums are.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vk9_bByHCNo


Posted By: liontime
Date Posted: 22 Apr 2017 at 4:48pm
Perhaps piano trios are not classified as 'bop?'


Posted By: js
Date Posted: 22 Apr 2017 at 4:55pm
Piano trios can be anything, but let me check the album you are talking about, we have a lot of albums on here with the wrong genre tag.


Posted By: js
Date Posted: 22 Apr 2017 at 5:16pm
You're right, that one had the wrong tag, still it was hard to define. Its in between hard bop and post bop, with some fairly outside playing too. I finally tagged it as post bop.


Posted By: liontime
Date Posted: 22 Apr 2017 at 5:48pm
Thanks for the answer! I'm also curious about Ornette Coleman's first four or five albums. Why are they avant-garde rather than a bop of some sort?


Posted By: js
Date Posted: 22 Apr 2017 at 5:51pm
You read my mind, ha. I have the first two set aside to re-evaluate sometime soon. Those albums may have been avant-garde for their time, but not anymore. 
"A Love Supreme" was considered more or less avant-garde way back when.


Posted By: liontime
Date Posted: 22 Apr 2017 at 5:59pm
Haha true enough! I don't have an extensive knowledge of this sort of thing but the first two or three seem pretty harmonically conventional to me. Aside from the unison harmonies and general strangeness of the tone, I would say it's adventurous hard bop..


Posted By: js
Date Posted: 22 Apr 2017 at 6:04pm
That sounds about right, I'm going to try and get those fixed soon.


Posted By: js
Date Posted: 22 Apr 2017 at 6:10pm
Their unison lines remind me of Parker and Gillespie, I'm sure Ornette and Cherry knew that. This version of "Koko" by Bird and Diz is almost more out than early Ornette.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rMiD8UUcd0


Posted By: js
Date Posted: 22 Apr 2017 at 6:13pm
I think its Ornette's solos that seemed so weird to people, all those swoops, they're almost humorous. Still sounds great too.


Posted By: liontime
Date Posted: 22 Apr 2017 at 6:38pm
Very true it's very bebop-esque. Don Cherry's solos are also really strange, he's all over the place


Posted By: js
Date Posted: 22 Apr 2017 at 6:45pm
The first one is weird, its the only one with a piano player, and he's a fairly straight ahead hard bop player.



Posted By: liontime
Date Posted: 22 Apr 2017 at 6:53pm
Yeah I inagine it's that classic first album deal where the label wants you to be at least a little conservative


Posted By: js
Date Posted: 22 Apr 2017 at 7:04pm
Their second album definitely starts sounding a little more like Ornette. Looking forward to checking out the third one tomorrow when Charlie Haden joins the group. 


Posted By: liontime
Date Posted: 22 Apr 2017 at 9:13pm
I honestly really like his quintet. I love all his work but the first album has a special place in my heart. Specifically the tracks Blessing and Sphinx. Just some really great jazz.


Posted By: liontime
Date Posted: 22 Apr 2017 at 9:15pm
the first six or seven are all impeccable. It's a really respectable series of albums.


Posted By: js
Date Posted: 23 Apr 2017 at 2:59am
I'm listening to the first one again, this one is unique. I like that neo be bop sound on this one.


Posted By: liontime
Date Posted: 23 Apr 2017 at 9:17am
Just re-read your criteria for hard bop again and it seems like Something Else!!! at least should be tagged as hard bop. It's very bluesy. The album still sounds really fresh to my ears though. It must have seemed totally alien in '58 haha. What are your thoughts? Is it avant-garde enough?


Posted By: js
Date Posted: 23 Apr 2017 at 9:21am
Last night I listened to the first one again and changed the tag to Hard Bop. The next three are tagged Post Bop.
I left "This is Our Music" as AG, the album opens with a hard bop number, but then they get outside after that, and more or less stay there, although the self recorded cassette I have seems to be missing a few tracks towards the end.


Posted By: liontime
Date Posted: 23 Apr 2017 at 9:29am
I agree with your rulings!


Posted By: js
Date Posted: 23 Apr 2017 at 9:37am
Thanks  Wink


Posted By: liontime
Date Posted: 23 Apr 2017 at 9:40am
I'm sure it's much easier for me to come up with genre bordering albums than it is for you to take time out of your day to listen and assess haha. But what about Sam Rivers' Contours? To me that seems like a good candidate for post bop


Posted By: js
Date Posted: 23 Apr 2017 at 9:41am
The front page of the site just crashed, gotta notify the owner.  Ermm


Posted By: js
Date Posted: 23 Apr 2017 at 9:42am
Originally posted by liontime liontime wrote:

I'm sure it's much easier for me to come up with genre bordering albums than it is for you to take time out of your day to listen and assess haha. But what about Sam Rivers' Contours? To me that seems like a good candidate for post bop

No problem, I'll check it out, we want to have correct genre tags. I'm in this for the long haul. Stern Smile


Posted By: liontime
Date Posted: 23 Apr 2017 at 9:51am
What's the best way for jazz fans who like the site to help you guys out? Writing reviews? Posting in the forums?


Posted By: js
Date Posted: 23 Apr 2017 at 10:04am
Writing reviews helps, posting in the forums helps too. If you have any friends that like jazz, tell them about the site.

RE Sam Rivers album, just listened to samples on allmusic and amazon and it seems Post Bop would be a good fit. Allmusic describes the album as being in between post bop and AG.


Posted By: liontime
Date Posted: 23 Apr 2017 at 10:24am
Good to know! The third track, Euterpe, is particularly interesting with (what I believe to be) a modal baseline throughout. Don't know if that would push it over to AG.


Posted By: js
Date Posted: 23 Apr 2017 at 10:28am
No, generally modal isn't AG, we tend to define AG as atonal, or mostly atonal.


Posted By: js
Date Posted: 23 Apr 2017 at 10:32am
Originally posted by js js wrote:

No, generally modal isn't AG, we tend to define AG as atonal, or mostly atonal.

You might enjoy checking out this thread:
http://www.jazzmusicarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4648&PID=58108" rel="nofollow - http://www.jazzmusicarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4648&PID=58108


Posted By: liontime
Date Posted: 23 Apr 2017 at 11:40am
Thanks for the link! Very helpful actually. I don't think Contours ever really gets atonal, but it's not all that straightforward either. Pretty cool album! Hard to classify haha


Posted By: liontime
Date Posted: 23 Apr 2017 at 11:42am
What about Jackie Mclean's album One Step Beyond? Seems like the title would suggest post bop but it walks that line really carefully.


Posted By: js
Date Posted: 23 Apr 2017 at 12:12pm
^ that one sounds like sort of 'out there' hard bop, but I think hard bop is still the best tag for that one.


Posted By: liontime
Date Posted: 23 Apr 2017 at 12:45pm
Fair enough I think you're right. In my personal collection I have it tagged as post bop mostly cause of the packaging


Posted By: js
Date Posted: 23 Apr 2017 at 12:56pm
There isn't necessarily one correct tag for an album, I think post bop would be a legitimate tag for that album.
By the way, I don't get the cover for that album.


Posted By: liontime
Date Posted: 23 Apr 2017 at 2:08pm
Oh wow, until this very moment I always just assumed it was him standing on a ship's mast or something. Upon closer examination... I'm not sure if that's him or not. And it looks like he's standing in front of some antennas?


Posted By: js
Date Posted: 23 Apr 2017 at 3:03pm
I guess that is Jackie, I always assumed Jackie was black.


Posted By: js
Date Posted: 23 Apr 2017 at 3:25pm
Actually, I guess he is racially mixed.


Posted By: liontime
Date Posted: 23 Apr 2017 at 5:37pm
That's kinda what I thought but I never saw any information before. Where did you see that?


Posted By: js
Date Posted: 23 Apr 2017 at 6:10pm
Just looking at his face, I really don't know, but he looks like a racially mixed person. Either way, he is one hell of saxophone player.


Posted By: liontime
Date Posted: 23 Apr 2017 at 7:14pm
True enough!! Here's a question: what Coltrane album was his first post bop release? You guys have his stuff listed as hard bop until A Love Supreme. Could one make a case for albums like Giant Steps or Favorite Things?


Posted By: js
Date Posted: 23 Apr 2017 at 7:17pm
I think "Giant Steps' should probably stay as hard bop, but let me look into "Favorite Things".


Posted By: js
Date Posted: 23 Apr 2017 at 7:32pm
I'd keep "Favorite Things" in hard bop too. Two of the songs are pure hard bop, the song "My Favorite Things" is in between hard and post bop, and then there is the ballad. Ballads can happen in any genre, and usually I don't use them to determine genre.


Posted By: liontime
Date Posted: 23 Apr 2017 at 7:45pm
That all makes sense to me, I'm mainly responding to Giant Steps' famous chord changes and Favorite Things' spaciness. I don't know how much things like that come in to play. Coltrane's albums sound so ahead of everyone else in that time period


Posted By: liontime
Date Posted: 23 Apr 2017 at 7:46pm
That of course doesn't make them post bop! I agree with your tags ultimately haha


Posted By: js
Date Posted: 23 Apr 2017 at 8:11pm
One thing to keep in mind, on a lot of albums, more than one tag could fit, but we have to settle on one, its not always an easy decision.
Some of these albums by the 'young lions' of the 90s up to recently are always right in between hard and post bop. I listened to some albums over and over trying to get a decision, its not easy sometimes.
Then there are those people like Coleman Hawkins who are right in between swing and bop, or Monk who is right in between bop and hard bop, etc.


Posted By: liontime
Date Posted: 24 Apr 2017 at 4:56pm
While we're at it, how does one differentiate between 'Bop' and 'Hard bop' and is 'Bebop' = 'Bop'?


Posted By: liontime
Date Posted: 24 Apr 2017 at 5:31pm
My understanding has been that bop and hard bop are somewhat like timestamps but isn't there a big musical difference?


Posted By: js
Date Posted: 24 Apr 2017 at 5:49pm
I don't know how much music theory you know, but bebop uses 'functional' harmony based around the ii V7 I chord change. Its the same harmonic progressions we hear in classical music (Mozart, Haydn on up to Chopin) as well as sophisticated pop music of the pre-WW II era and a few years after that.
Hard bop is more modal, often based around minor blues chord changes.

In bebop the harmonies move and change faster, while in hard bop they are more apt to stay on chords where the harmony stays the same.
In other words a bop player is having to change the scales he is playing faster than the hard bop player.

Also, early bebop tends to use faster tempos than hard bop, but not always.

Its that functional harmony that makes bop sound 'old fashioned' to modern ears. Todays music, from metal to hip hop and almost everything else is based around the sound of minor blues, Chicago blues actually.
To that I would add that some bebop was based around minor blues changes as well.


Posted By: liontime
Date Posted: 24 Apr 2017 at 8:50pm
That's very interesting, thank you for going through that for me. Didn't realize there was a tonal explanation for why old pop music sounds the way it does. Embarrassed

I took Music Theory I (for majors) in college, but I'm no expert. I try to keep up with chord progressions when they seem important but I'm more than happy to just listen passively haha. That said, I mainly try to rely on instinct when it comes to identifying interesting chords/harmonies/etc.


Posted By: js
Date Posted: 24 Apr 2017 at 8:53pm
Instinct is the best. I hear things by instinct first, and then try to figure out why later.
It does not take any knowledge of music theory to hear the difference between bop and post or hard bop, they just sound obviously different.


Posted By: liontime
Date Posted: 24 Apr 2017 at 8:56pm
I appreciate your time and knowledge in this forum! The question of Hard Bop or Hardly Bop persists haha.

Here's an album that is in line with the original intent of this thread: Sound of Sonny // Sonny Rollins. That's an interesting album, but I don't know that I would have called it Post Bop myself. The unaccompanied track is off beat, but is it that far out there?


Posted By: js
Date Posted: 25 Apr 2017 at 7:05am
I changed "Sound of Sonny" to hard bop. Calling it post bop was understandable because there is very little blues on there, but just the general directness of the music seemed closer to hard bop. Its another example of how more than one tag can fit.



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