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Sean Trane View Drop Down
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    Posted: 11 Jul 2011 at 3:20am
Can't help but wondering about the average ratings on some of these albums in the (still young) JMA database
 
I know it's about tastes and colours, but....
 
OK, those who know me from PA know that I'm a fairly "severe or conservative rater", which means that I tend to rate frolmthe middle of the scale as a starting point....
 
 
Of course I don't have as vast a knowledge about jazz as I do about prog... so there are entire categories or genres,  that are not "my thing", so I'm not likely to give them more than three stars even if they're considered as a masterpiece in their own right or genre.... but I can't help but seeing that a lot of my ratings are considerably lower than other members around the site.
 
 
Sooooo the question is: should we not rate more conservatively???
 
 
Any thoughts about this?
my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicted musicians to crazy ones....

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snobb View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote snobb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jul 2011 at 4:47am
I believe this thread could be long as life and full of endless fights. I think every music fan has his own scale for albums he listened,and such scales are very various. The only thing I'm always surprise seeing a lot of 5* ratings for very marginal albums. It's not even question of taste - I just can't believe there are tens of 5* jazz albums released every year. 

I don't speak about jazz "golden fund" releases (and even them are great for some people and far not so great for others), but seeing for example almost everything what is released by modern days ECM rated as 5* albums looks a bit strange for me: yes,the label found their successful formula for contemporary jazz sales,but unfortunately such albums are usually very similar between each other. So -if you think one of them is masterpiece,it means all other clones are masterpieces as well? Same with third stream piano albums - if you like "Koln Concert" (personally I don't),does it means any other Jarrett solo piano release is masterpiece only because Jarrett repeats same formula regularly?

It's just my very personal opinion, but I think there some really great albums of almost every jazz or jazz-related genre (as rule released when one ore another sub-genre was on it's artistic peak), but total number of masterpieces is tens at best,not hundreds. Speaking about 80s,90s or 00s,I am really happy when one five star album could be found for every year, but it hardly happens.

Looking from another hand, fans who believe there are many 5* albums released every year,are real music maniacs - they just LOVE music in general,any music and it's great!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote js Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jul 2011 at 6:32am
Somebody worries too much.  Stern Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kazuhiro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jul 2011 at 7:03am
I have submitted a review of Love Beach of ELP to the PA before. The rating that I acquired was a 3 star. I do not yet receive an attack.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote js Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jul 2011 at 7:06am
This sort of speculation is not what the "Help us Improve the site" thread is supposed to be for, consider this thread moved. 
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Ricochet View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ricochet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jul 2011 at 7:58am
I like how we're jumping to the conclusion that this will be pointless arguing and nitpicking.  Tongue
Now, Hugues, moving on this new site was a good chance not to appear elitist compared to the rest of us, you obviously didn't care for that. Tongue


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cannonball With Hat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jul 2011 at 10:09pm
@ Snobb: Well I think using any ol' rating system is a problem, being the site gives specific guildlines of how to rate albums. I have the same gripe at PA. People should rate albums according to the guidlines. You have the review to explain it and do with as you please. But it seems people prefer using their own personal liking scale.  This does create a problem. Using different types of rating systems does lead to some inconsistancies.
 
As for the topic...I imagine things will iron out better with more reviews/ratings. Which does imply more people. Preferrably these are people with some sort of jazz/music knowledge but people nonetheless. I don't usually keep up with reviews or the non forum parts of the site. How many reviews does jma have anyway? (How many members for the matter)


Edited by Cannonball With Hat - 11 Jul 2011 at 10:11pm
Hit it on Five.

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Sean Trane View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sean Trane Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jul 2011 at 2:29am
Originally posted by snobb snobb wrote:

 The only thing I'm always surprise seeing a lot of 5* ratings for very marginal albums. It's not even question of taste - I just can't believe there are tens of 5* jazz albums released every year. 

I don't speak about jazz "golden fund" releases (and even them are great for some people and far not so great for others), but seeing for example almost everything what is released by modern days ECM rated as 5* albums looks a bit strange for me: yes,the label found their successful formula for contemporary jazz sales,but unfortunately such albums are usually very similar between each other.
 
So -if you think one of them is masterpiece,it means all other clones are masterpieces as well? Same with third stream piano albums - if you like "Koln Concert" (personally I don't),does it means any other Jarrett solo piano release is masterpiece only because Jarrett repeats same formula regularly?

It's just my very personal opinion, but I think there some really great albums of almost every jazz or jazz-related genre (as rule released when one ore another sub-genre was on it's artistic peak), but total number of masterpieces is tens at best,not hundreds. Speaking about 80s,90s or 00s,I am really happy when one five star album could be found for every year, but it hardly happens.
 
 
Hug
 
I now feel less alone on my planet!!!!ApproveCool
 
Slava, thanks for wording my concernso much than I could've done it!Clap
 
 
my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicted musicians to crazy ones....

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sean Trane Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jul 2011 at 2:43am
 
 
edited....Wink 
 
 


Edited by Sean Trane - 15 Jul 2011 at 3:25am
my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicted musicians to crazy ones....

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sean Trane Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jul 2011 at 5:18am
 
 
Edited.... Wink


Edited by Sean Trane - 15 Jul 2011 at 3:25am
my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicted musicians to crazy ones....

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ricochet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jul 2011 at 5:41am
Okay, serious mode.

The site is new, the ratings for a specific album are few (or in many cases just one), they obviously need to settle in time. A lot of folks (especially from PA) have expressed coming here to hear new and great jazz, so they could very well focus on what they liked a lot. I find that there are few of us who are looking into jazz encyclopedically.

Other than that, every member would now need to come and explain his methods / why isn't he more critic (in case he's one of those putting a lot of stars in) / why he's not thinking more globally about jazz instead of how much his pleasure points were tickled by some specific improv etc. I think there's a bit of harrassing in this.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote harmonium.ro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jul 2011 at 5:59am
With only 7 ***** ratings out of 107 I think I'm on Hugues' side. I would round up to ***** a good number of my ****1/2 ratings on a simplified rating scheme like that of PA, but I am thankful that half stars are available here and let us differentiate between fundamental, transcendental masterpieces and albums that are perfect in their own way but not really up there with the former.

Also, my favourite genres (Nu-Jazz and Third Stream) have averages of 3.92 and 4.09 in my ratings statistics, I think that's quite balanced.

Most of the reviewers here are experienced reviewers from PA, I doubt they are too generous with their ratings, why do you have this impression Hugues?


Edited by harmonium.ro - 12 Jul 2011 at 7:47am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ricochet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jul 2011 at 6:31am
Originally posted by harmonium.ro harmonium.ro wrote:

With only 7 ***** ratings out of 107 I think I'm on Hugues' side.


How? That wouldn't make us overzealous.
Then again, the number 4.0 / 4.5 stars is probably the most significant.

Originally posted by harmonium.ro harmonium.ro wrote:

  I would round up to ***** a good number of my ****1/2 ratings on a simplified rating scheme like that of PA, but I am thanful that half stars are available here and let us differentiate between fundamental, transcendental masterpieces and albums that are perfect in their own way but not really up there with the former.


My ratings here will likely be 0.5 higher than how I would rate the album in full musical context (or simply in my own preferential box).

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote harmonium.ro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jul 2011 at 6:53am
Originally posted by Ricochet Ricochet wrote:

Originally posted by harmonium.ro harmonium.ro wrote:

With only 7 ***** ratings out of 107 I think I'm on Hugues' side.


How? That wouldn't make us overzealous.


I'm on Hugues' side in the sense that I try to become more of a balanced reviewer. And I don't see how my posts implies anything about other people here. Question
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote idlero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jul 2011 at 6:54am
I never used (here or on PA) nor will use 1/2*  or *
I think the problem with a lot of the fusion music is that it's extremely predictable, it's a rock rhythm and the solos all play the same stuff and they play it over and over again ...
Ken Burns
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ricochet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jul 2011 at 6:59am
Originally posted by idlero idlero wrote:

I never used (here or on PA) nor will use 1/2*  or *


I don't think going so low is the point.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ricochet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jul 2011 at 7:00am
Originally posted by harmonium.ro harmonium.ro wrote:

Originally posted by Ricochet Ricochet wrote:

Originally posted by harmonium.ro harmonium.ro wrote:

With only 7 ***** ratings out of 107 I think I'm on Hugues' side.


How? That wouldn't make us overzealous.


I'm on Hugues' side in the sense that I try to become more of a balanced reviewer. And I don't see how my posts implies anything about other people here. Question


D'oh, your 107 ratings. *facepalm*

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sean Trane Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jul 2011 at 7:27am
Originally posted by Ricochet Ricochet wrote:

Okay, serious mode.

The site is new, the ratings for a specific album are few (or in many cases just one), they obviously need to settle in time. A lot of folks (especially from PA) have expressed coming here to hear new and great jazz, so they could very well focus on what they liked a lot. I find that there are few of us who are looking into jazz encyclopedically.

Other than that, every member would now need to come and explain his methods / why isn't he more critic (in case he's one of those putting a lot of stars in) / why he's not thinking more globally about jazz instead of how much his pleasure points were tickled by some specific improv etc. I think there's a bit of harrassing in this.
 
I fully agree that the ratings have yet to be entered in great quantities and no doubt that they (ratings) will settle down, once the dust has fallen back on the ground.Smile
 
Well actually these kinds of sites (such as ours, but RYM or more)  must also take on an encyclopedic view of the whole jazz spectrum, imho. After all, don't we announce ourselves as "ultimate" first and foremost???
 
That's also how I rated from day1 in ProgArchives... I don't make an artiste's best album (to moi, of courseWink)  automatically a five, 4.5 or four star if it doesn't deserve it. I take (or at least try to take)  into consideration  an album's historical relevance and it's influential potential or proven influence. I sort of master my own view for an overall-view of  prog (and/or classic rock), but I must say that it's quite trickier for jazz, gioven my age and the much longer time lapse involved >> the subject is so vast, that it's rather difficult (if not impossible) to have total mastery of all its areas or genres.
 
But the thing is that right now, with every (or almost) album having an above-four-star rating, it's quite hard to make out the essential albums from the more anecdotic ones (Slava's example about Jarrett is perfect in this regard) if they're all equally-rated.Confused
 
re: rating justification: Well I was wondering if the reviewing members wouldn't have a space in his profile ( like in PA), where they could tell of their background and maybe explain his rating method...explain it once and for all there.
 
 
 
 
 
my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicted musicians to crazy ones....

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote harmonium.ro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jul 2011 at 7:35am
Originally posted by Ricochet Ricochet wrote:

Originally posted by harmonium.ro harmonium.ro wrote:

Originally posted by Ricochet Ricochet wrote:

Originally posted by harmonium.ro harmonium.ro wrote:

With only 7 ***** ratings out of 107 I think I'm on Hugues' side.


How? That wouldn't make us overzealous.


I'm on Hugues' side in the sense that I try to become more of a balanced reviewer. And I don't see how my posts implies anything about other people here. Question


D'oh, your 107 ratings. *facepalm*


I don't understand what you were trying to say anymore. LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sean Trane Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jul 2011 at 7:46am
Originally posted by harmonium.ro harmonium.ro wrote:

With only 7 ***** ratings out of 107 I think I'm on Hugues' side. I would round up to ***** a good number of my ****1/2 ratings on a simplified rating scheme like that of PA, but I am thanful that half stars are available here and let us differentiate between fundamental, transcendental masterpieces and albums that are perfect in their own way but not really up there with the former.


Most of the reviewers here are experienced reviewers from PA, I doubt they are too generous with their ratings, why do you have this impression Hugues?
 
Interesting process, and agreed on the principle,  although I would tend to downgrade (instead of upgrade)  a 4.5 into a 4 on ProgArchives, precisely to let "la crème de la crème" appear at the top.
Yes, Halfstar are so much nicer than full starsBig smileLOL 
The risk of collegial over-rating might actually mislead a newcomer in choosing  the ABC album (somewhat not at the top) from the XYZ band, instead of the MNO or PQR album (their real masterpieces) based on a minimal rating difference, and that very newcommer might be disgusted at trying another album if it's considered among the very best from XYZ... That's why it's important to have a significant margin between top rung and sexcond echelon albums. 
 
 
yes I know most raters are from PA and are experienced, but to grasp the overall scheme in jazz when most of us are still quite "tender" and still finding our way (that's valid for me as well) is very trticky...
 
That's why I prefer the conservative rating approach, instead of the over-appreciative total music fan that is too optimistic.
 
On Gnosis2000 (where I rate as well), we have a cool policy of not rating a new album (not just recent release, but any new acquisition) any higher than 11 (out of 15) to avoid the novelty factor.
 
my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicted musicians to crazy ones....

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