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Unidentified Music -- Miles or not?

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iconkid View Drop Down
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    Posted: 27 Aug 2017 at 12:02am
I'll get to the point: I'll pay $100 to the first person who can positively identify the following music sample I posted on YouTube.  It is a 2-minute 40-second part of something I recorded off the radio (in New York City) onto a cassette tape thirty years ago.  I want the complete piece.  I believed it was Miles Davis (circa late '80s) but the people at Miles' official web site say it is not.  If it's not Miles then who is it?!  It is not even one of the eight million recordings that Shazam has scanned.  Some one in this world must know the title of this piece and who performed it.

To hear the sample of this lost piece of music go to my YouTube channel "caddyjoint96"
and play the video entitled "Miles Davis."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote js Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Aug 2017 at 2:32am
Okay, here is a link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68ND-5gyAV8

The trumpet playing sounds a lot like Miles towards the end of the segment, but not as much at the beginning. The music sounds a lot like some things he was doing on "Tutu" and "Amandla", in fact the underlying bass motive is from a song on "Tutu", I just can't recall the name, but the rest of the tune was entirely unfamiliar, and I do know all of his repertoire pretty well, but that doesn't mean it couldn't be something I've missed.

It could be Miles, if not, my next guess would be Wallace Rooney. You might want to look into Wallace's music, or fan websites.


Edited by js - 27 Aug 2017 at 7:05am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote js Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Aug 2017 at 7:03am
^ Thinking about this further, the fact that there is an acoustic piano solo makes me think this may not be Miles. 
If this is Miles, then musically it is from the late 80s or early 90s. During this time, the solos in Miles' band consisted of saxophone, guitar and digital keyboards. I can't recall an acoustic piano being used in his music during this time, plus the solo didn't really sound like something from Miles' band.

I'm leaning towards this being Wallace Rooney or someone else.


Edited by js - 27 Aug 2017 at 7:07am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote iconkid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Aug 2017 at 7:50am
Thank you JS for taking a look at the video.  I didn't post a link to it directly because there is a notice on this site that says outgoing links are disabled.  Yes, it sounds like late '80s/early '90s.  The tune on the Tutu album having the same lumbering 3-note base riff as my sample is the title piece itself -- Tutu.  I've skimmed through the entire album an no other piece on it uses this riff except the title piece.  Another reason why I think it's Miles is because I remember the DJ anounce the piece as "Tutu."  Perhaps it is another band doing their own version of it.  Thanks for the tip on Wallace Rooney -- I will start looking into his work to see if I can get a match with this piece.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote js Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Aug 2017 at 9:24am
Just listened to the live version of "Tutu" on "Live Around the World" by Miles and it does not sound like your clip at all. The solos were done by digital synthesizer and electric guitar and the melody was the same as the album, unlike the totally different melody on your clip. The overall feel of the tune was way more energetic fusion than your clip, which adds to my feeling that your clip is not Miles.

Interesting thing about Wallace Rooney is not only can his trumpet sound like Miles, but he did some music on CD that sounds a lot like late 80s to early 90s Miles music.

I did a search for a Wallace Rooney version of "Tutu" and came up with nothing, but I did find a live album with Quincy Jones that features Miles and Wallace both, but they don't play "Tutu".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote iconkid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Aug 2017 at 1:09pm
Yes, the piece I have here has different melodies happening and it's style is more layed back.  Quite frankly, I'm in love with it.  That lilting piano and the funky base lines kill me.  There is another striking similarity between Tutu and this piece (besides the same 3-note bass riff).  Around three quarters of the way through each piece there is what you might call a mild crescendo.  What happens is that the music gets soft and low and then the trumpet brings it all back with six ascending notes.  Listen to the following Miles tune and skip to (time) 3:56 to 4:11, which is nineteen seconds. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Jnqz62d9oM&list=PL9RpiKA3ruJ_Oich34SoUcPMYkQDXNcy6

Then listen to the equivalent of that on my sample from 1:40 to 1:59 (fifteen seconds)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68ND-5gyAV8

In both pieces, the trumpet plays the exact same six notes to bring the band up from soft to loud.  Could this be just a coincidence?  I've reached out to the Wallace Roney official web site.  I'm waiting to see if they'll get back to me on this.  Thanks again for your interest in my search.  I will post here again if and when I find out where this music came from.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote js Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Aug 2017 at 3:04pm
I just listened to three different live versions of "Tutu" by Marcus Miller. each version was different, and one had lots of extra chord changes like your version. Each version had a different trumpet player too. 
I thinks its possible your version is by Marcus Miller, that would explain the great bass playing.
I listened to the similar breaks you mentioned and they don't seem to be coincidences.


Edited by js - 27 Aug 2017 at 5:36pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote iconkid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Sep 2017 at 8:53pm
"I listened to the similar breaks you mentioned and they don't seem to be coincidences."
Just for clarity, I take that to mean that you see the two breaks as being basically the same.  Correct?

I tried reaching out to Marcus Miller ten days ago (allowable only through the message board on his web site) but no one has responded yet.  I find it strange when someone says it doesn't sound like Miles Davis because it sounds so very much like him to me, though I am not well studied on his vast body of work.  The only Miles Davis album I ever bought was "Jack Johnson" back in '71 (when I was seventeen years old).  What's funny is that I posted this same search on another Jazz forum (Music Banter.com) and the one response I've gotten so far consisted of only three words, "It's Miles Davis," though it would have been nice for him to qualify his statement a bit.  You listened to three live versions of Miller's Tutu, but my sample is from a studio recording, so I'll have to find out if Miller ever published a studio version of Tutu.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote js Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Sep 2017 at 3:16am
^ Yes, they seem to be the same break, or very similar.

I've listened to lots and lots of Miles over the years, I own every record he put out since the early 60s, plus lots of older stuff too, including his work in Charlie Parker's group. The playing on your sample is very similar to him, and may be him, but I would guess it is not him, but I may be wrong. The playing at the beginning of the track is too straight for him, its lacking the weird nuances, but toward the end of the solo, you do start hearing some of the weird nuances. Although there are many trumpeters who can do an okay imitation of Miles, the only trumpet player I've ever heard really get the weird nuances down is Wallace Roney. By the way, I was misspelling Wallace's name in the above posts.

Here is a list of people who have recorded covers of "Tutu":

Many artists have performed cover versions of the title track including, Stevie Wonder, Cassandra Wilson, George Benson and Al Jarreau, World Saxophone Quartet with Jack DeJohnette, Gordon James, Russell Gunn, Chuck Brown and The Soul Searchers, Humberto Ramirez, Manhattan Transfer, Marcus Miller, Endless Miles Project (including Bob Berg, Wallace Roney and Lenny White), and the bass super-group SMV – Stanley Clarke, Marcus Miller and Victor Wooten. There’s even a vibes version.


http://www.jazzwisemagazine.com/artists/14045-miles-davis-tutu


https://www.amazon.com/ENDLESS-MILES-TRIBUTE-DAVIS/dp/B00000AD9U


PS: I just listened to the versions by Russell Gunn and Gordon James, its neither of those.



Edited by js - 02 Sep 2017 at 3:45am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote iconkid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Sep 2017 at 1:01pm
I've searched to see if Marcus Miller ever made a studio recording of Tutu and it looks like he never did (everything taped was done live).  I did notice a difference in Miller's bass -- he's playing a base guitar, but isn't it a double bass I'm hearing in my sample? Somewhere out there is a very cool double base player (hope he's still alive).  I've been trying to reach out to some of the musicians who worked with Miles but it seems that they are too aloof to respond.  I may soon be running out of strategies for continuing my search.  That would be a shame because the fine artists who performed this piece are not getting credit and acclaim for it -- their work seems to have been completely forgotten, except by me, of course.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote js Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Sep 2017 at 11:48am
I wonder if it might be The Endless Miles Project listed in my above post.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote iconkid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Sep 2017 at 12:43pm
I just checked out that link.  My sound clip has a slower tempo than the '86 release.  The one in the link has an even slower tempo than mine, so there's no match even though they play only a roughly ten-second portion of each track.  I sampled the rest of the tracks for good measure.  One of the staff of another radio station thinks that it's Miles Davis with Marcus Miller on base, and suggests that I reach out to Marcus to get something more definitive.  I've tried that already (through the message board on his web site) but I didn't know that Marcus has a FaceBook page which this responder said I should try.  I did, and I'm now waiting for a response.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote iconkid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Sep 2017 at 11:22pm
Just an update:
I managed to get some clues on this from someone who worked closely with Miles for a time.  He is Adam Holzman, who was Miles' keyboardist and music director from '85 to '89.  He is certain that it's not Davis on trumpet, but with at least a grain of doubt.  That grain of doubt being the possibility that it was Davis during the time he was using "an Italian keyboardist."  Another comment was, "There were lots of things coming out in the late 80's that sounded like 'Tutu.'"  That would be a strange phenomenon -- how or why would someone make a piece that somehow sounds like "Tutu" without calling it "a version of Tutu?"  Another thing that seems to get blurred when I get suggestions is that the piece I'm searching for was recorded in a recording studio -- it's not a live performance before an audience.  It could have been some kind of limited pressing given out to some radio stations for exposure and then canceled a full release of the work -- who knows?  That could be the reason why Shazam hasn't scanned it.  I could be looking for something where there were only a handful of pressings made (relatively speaking).  The question remains as to who were the people who sat down in a recording studio one fine day to make this music, have it pressed under some label or another and have it sent out and played on the radio.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote js Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Sep 2017 at 5:49am
Thats interesting that Holzman weighed in on this, and his idea of a song that influences other songs may be true. Successful songs like "Watermelon Man" and "Cantaloupe Island" inspired similar songs.

From all the samples that I have listened to about this, its one of the versions of "Tutu" by Marcus Miller that has the greatest similarities. The original "Tutu" does not have a lot of chord changes to it, but your version does. One of the Miller versions of "Tutu" has similar extra chord changes to it. Possibly someone felt inspired from hearing a Miller version to do his own re-arrangement.

Since you got Holzman to respond to this, maybe he can help you get a response from Miller.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote iconkid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Sep 2017 at 1:48pm
I've already tried contacting Marcus Miller both on his discussion board and on his FaceBook page and he's not responded, and I am greateful enough to Adam Holzman not to burden him with a request to get Miller's attention.  I've searched the "Italian Keyboardist" question (who appears to be Paolo Rustichelli) and this is null.

  The next thing I will do is to seek the help of Shazam but first I want to make a good digitized sample of the piece.  The one in my video skips every few seconds.  That's because I had used it as a sound track for a 3D animation copied onto a video tape I made around twenty years ago, then I sent it out to a company that converts VHS tape digital.  The skipping is the result of the lousy job they did.  Today I pulled out the original audio cassette tape (which has not been played in twenty years) and it's still good.  I just ordered a cassette digitizer which I'll use to make a skip-free recording.  I played the skip-free version for Shazam and it still does not get it, however one can send them missing music samples for them to examine.  The fact that this piece is not recognized in the app does not mean that it's never been sought -- there may be other reasons such as copyright restrictions that may have been placed on this particular piece, as explained on their web site.

Another aspect of my search, since I've had to go this far with it, is what the make up of this ensemble is because it might provide some clues.  We have a muted trumpet which is the only horn instrument.  We have a piano, which you said is acoustic.  There is no base guitar but there is what sounds to me like a double base.  There is a drummer.  There is what sounds like strings but is that a synthesizer?  If so, that would be a modest group of only five people to make this lovely music -- not some big band.  Another question (which I don't know is practical to even ask) is: under what record label may this piece have been released.  Some labels tend to associate themselves more with certain genres of music (or musical acts) than others.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote js Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Sep 2017 at 2:12pm
That would be good to hear the version without all the weird skips. As far as instruments go, definitely there is:
electric bass guitar
trumpet with mute
drums, possibly an electric set
acoustic piano or digital keyboard set to the acoustic piano sound
string synthesizer

and then possibly:
percussion player, I hear some clicks that sound like wood blocks
possibly an electric guitar player, sounds like there is someone doubling the bass line occasionally.

Hearing a non-skipping version would help.
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