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Hard bop or hardly bop?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote js Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Aug 2016 at 11:25am
Re the arrangements: I think its worth adding that post bop pieces are more apt to have elaborate arrangements than a hard bop piece, but its not really a defining characteristic.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dreadpirateroberts Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Aug 2016 at 9:47am
Great answers! :)

I found it especially interesting re: the arrangements (maybe it shows how much progressive big band I've been listening to lately? :D) and the way the compromise between modal/fusion for it to end up as 'post'.

And it's interesting also how much this piece stands out compared to the rest of the album too. I'm pretty happy I stumbled across it actually - oddly enough, it was just a random youtube recommendation!


Will have another song to post tomorrow :)


Edited by dreadpirateroberts - 01 Aug 2016 at 9:48am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dreadpirateroberts Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jul 2016 at 12:35am
Fixed the video, finally! Back to chat more in a few hours :D
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote js Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jul 2016 at 9:08am
The top link works, but not the video link, for those who are playing along at home.

First lets establish the ground rules. when we are looking for hard bop, we have two things in mind:
1) The blues (or gospel), especially minor key blues.
2) straight ahead driving rhythm, usually swing based, but not always.

This cut provided, "Early Summer" is a tough one and a good choice.
As you know, the album that this comes from, "Scenery" is tagged Hard Bop, but this track is a little different.

The album tag remains hard bop, and some would tag this song as hard bop, but I would tag this song as post bop, although it is not a clear case.
Harmonically speaking this is 'modal jazz', in other words they are jamming in one key, or mode (G Dorian) instead of following chord progressions. Modal does not determine genre as post bop, hard bop or fusion tracks can all be modal. Still, I don't hear much blues here, so I would tag the song post bop, but it could be tagged hard bop too, and not be way off.

On a side note, there are some interesting hybrid rhythms here, which is often the case in Japanese jazz. This piece does not actually 'swing' in the way we would normally think of swing rhythm, which could also push its tag towards fusion, but still post bop remains the best compromise.

This track is a good example of how difficult genre tags can be. Geek

Re arrangements: The presence of arrangements is crucial to both big band genres and 3rd stream, but otherwise it is not part of any other genre definition.
Hard bop, post bop and fusion can all have complicated arrangements.




Edited by js - 27 Jul 2016 at 9:20am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dreadpirateroberts Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jul 2016 at 8:21am
Okay! Ace idea for a thread - here's the first one, it's by Ryo Fukui from 1976, a trio recording:

Early Summer

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUGM9ikbBDw



My first thought was that it might fit Post Bop because it had more of an 'arrangement' perhaps - rather than being like the straight-ahead, charging feel I notice in a lot of Hard Bop - but there's some aspects (of the music/scales for one) etc that I've missed, that would have helped me categorise it better :)

Your thoughts, John?






Edited by dreadpirateroberts - 28 Jul 2016 at 12:34am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote js Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jul 2016 at 9:37am
In this thread, Ashley, myself and whoever else wants to join in will be discussing the trials of the genre tag man as he tries to decide the age old question, ... hard bop or post bop. Stern Smile

Drop off some samples Ashley and lets discuss them. 
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