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Hard bop or hardly bop?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote js Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Apr 2017 at 6:45pm
The first one is weird, its the only one with a piano player, and he's a fairly straight ahead hard bop player.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote liontime Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Apr 2017 at 6:38pm
Very true it's very bebop-esque. Don Cherry's solos are also really strange, he's all over the place
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote js Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Apr 2017 at 6:13pm
I think its Ornette's solos that seemed so weird to people, all those swoops, they're almost humorous. Still sounds great too.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote js Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Apr 2017 at 6:10pm
Their unison lines remind me of Parker and Gillespie, I'm sure Ornette and Cherry knew that. This version of "Koko" by Bird and Diz is almost more out than early Ornette.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rMiD8UUcd0


Edited by js - 22 Apr 2017 at 6:13pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote js Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Apr 2017 at 6:04pm
That sounds about right, I'm going to try and get those fixed soon.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote liontime Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Apr 2017 at 5:59pm
Haha true enough! I don't have an extensive knowledge of this sort of thing but the first two or three seem pretty harmonically conventional to me. Aside from the unison harmonies and general strangeness of the tone, I would say it's adventurous hard bop..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote js Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Apr 2017 at 5:51pm
You read my mind, ha. I have the first two set aside to re-evaluate sometime soon. Those albums may have been avant-garde for their time, but not anymore. 
"A Love Supreme" was considered more or less avant-garde way back when.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote liontime Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Apr 2017 at 5:48pm
Thanks for the answer! I'm also curious about Ornette Coleman's first four or five albums. Why are they avant-garde rather than a bop of some sort?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote js Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Apr 2017 at 5:16pm
You're right, that one had the wrong tag, still it was hard to define. Its in between hard bop and post bop, with some fairly outside playing too. I finally tagged it as post bop.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote js Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Apr 2017 at 4:55pm
Piano trios can be anything, but let me check the album you are talking about, we have a lot of albums on here with the wrong genre tag.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote liontime Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Apr 2017 at 4:48pm
Perhaps piano trios are not classified as 'bop?'
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote liontime Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Apr 2017 at 4:45pm
Hello! I don't mean to insert myself into an old thread but I remembered looking at this thread when it was made and not having any input at the time.

But now I have a question! Speaking of the line between hard bop and post bop, I'd like to approach from the other side and see where the line between post bop and avant-garde/free jazz is.

Paul Bley's album "Paul Bley with Gary Peacock" is listed as avant-garde jazz on here and I was wondering how it got that designation as I would have personally placed it in the post bop area of things. It's not a straight forward album by any means, but it's definitely not as free as many other ECM albums are.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vk9_bByHCNo
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote js Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Dec 2016 at 8:10pm
Cool jazz quit being a genre back in the mid 60s, even if something is kind of 'cool', we wouldn't use the term 'cool jazz' anymore.
This cut could be used as a text book example of post bop, the rhythm swings, but in a sort of fractured way, the chord changes are abstract with the extended harmonies etc., plus a 3/4 feel a lot of times. The drummer favors Tony Williams for sure.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dreadpirateroberts Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Dec 2016 at 7:49pm
Okay!

Got another one, from Peter Knight - this whole album of his has got a 'cool' vibe but I still wouldn't call it a 'cool' album. In this track the 'scattered' drumming, which is not a good descriptive at all, gives some of the rhythm a more 'halting' feel at times that I associate with post bop where sometimes song structure is more 'chopped' up (again, not the best descriptors perhaps lol) The beats I'm thinking of often feel like they're built around fills and improv rather than laying something down that the rest of the musicians can solo over for long stretches.

Peter Knight - Eunoia (2006)







Edited by dreadpirateroberts - 13 Dec 2016 at 7:51pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dreadpirateroberts Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Dec 2016 at 7:37pm
Originally posted by js js wrote:

The 'whole new thing' thats happening on this cut is all the time changes or 'metric modulations', the brilliant drummer Roy Haynes could move all over the place and still swing.


It's amazing, huh? Must take some real compartmentalizing to do that :)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote js Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Nov 2016 at 5:50pm
The Dolphy cut definitely gets the post bop or Avant-garde tag, but you're right, there is a lot of Parker and Gillespie on that one, as well as a good dose of Ornette too.
The 'whole new thing' thats happening on this cut is all the time changes or 'metric modulations', the brilliant drummer Roy Haynes could move all over the place and still swing. 

In today's world, that cut could be tagged 21st Century Modern, this album, along with a lot of things by Dolphy's running mates like Mingus and Chico Hamilton, could be considered forerunners of today's jazz.


Edited by js - 27 Nov 2016 at 6:39pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote js Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Nov 2016 at 5:00am
Thanks, love this album, but I will have to wait until I get home later today to hear the track.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dreadpirateroberts Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Nov 2016 at 4:12am
Back! Sorry about the huge delay - still enjoying this :)

Okay, how about Gazzelloni on Out to Lunch?





Post? Seems like one of the tracks with a more 'bop' feel?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote js Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Aug 2016 at 5:32pm
Yeah, that one is right in between. I'd probably call that hard bop, but it does have those more abstract harmonies too. It could easily be tagged post bop.
To me, that's hard bop that is leaning towards post bop.

One thing to keep in mind, as the main genre tagger on the site, I have my own criteria for determining genres, but not all the different jazz sites are the same.
I notice some sites have a broader definition for hard bop. For them, almost any swing based jazz with a straight ahead rhythm is hard bop.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dreadpirateroberts Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Aug 2016 at 5:10pm
Okay, here's another piece :) 

This one feels like Hard Bop without being particularly 'driving' but I wonder if there's anything else going on that I can't pick up on as a non-musician? For instance, Empyrean Isles is a Post Bop album of course, and I considered posting One Finger Snap instead, as a clear Hard Bop piece, but thought that Oliloqui Valley might be worth a look too?


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