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Hard bop or hardly bop?

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    Posted: 26 Jul 2016 at 9:37am
In this thread, Ashley, myself and whoever else wants to join in will be discussing the trials of the genre tag man as he tries to decide the age old question, ... hard bop or post bop. Stern Smile

Drop off some samples Ashley and lets discuss them. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dreadpirateroberts Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jul 2016 at 8:21am
Okay! Ace idea for a thread - here's the first one, it's by Ryo Fukui from 1976, a trio recording:

Early Summer

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUGM9ikbBDw



My first thought was that it might fit Post Bop because it had more of an 'arrangement' perhaps - rather than being like the straight-ahead, charging feel I notice in a lot of Hard Bop - but there's some aspects (of the music/scales for one) etc that I've missed, that would have helped me categorise it better :)

Your thoughts, John?






Edited by dreadpirateroberts - 28 Jul 2016 at 12:34am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote js Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jul 2016 at 9:08am
The top link works, but not the video link, for those who are playing along at home.

First lets establish the ground rules. when we are looking for hard bop, we have two things in mind:
1) The blues (or gospel), especially minor key blues.
2) straight ahead driving rhythm, usually swing based, but not always.

This cut provided, "Early Summer" is a tough one and a good choice.
As you know, the album that this comes from, "Scenery" is tagged Hard Bop, but this track is a little different.

The album tag remains hard bop, and some would tag this song as hard bop, but I would tag this song as post bop, although it is not a clear case.
Harmonically speaking this is 'modal jazz', in other words they are jamming in one key, or mode (G Dorian) instead of following chord progressions. Modal does not determine genre as post bop, hard bop or fusion tracks can all be modal. Still, I don't hear much blues here, so I would tag the song post bop, but it could be tagged hard bop too, and not be way off.

On a side note, there are some interesting hybrid rhythms here, which is often the case in Japanese jazz. This piece does not actually 'swing' in the way we would normally think of swing rhythm, which could also push its tag towards fusion, but still post bop remains the best compromise.

This track is a good example of how difficult genre tags can be. Geek

Re arrangements: The presence of arrangements is crucial to both big band genres and 3rd stream, but otherwise it is not part of any other genre definition.
Hard bop, post bop and fusion can all have complicated arrangements.




Edited by js - 27 Jul 2016 at 9:20am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dreadpirateroberts Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jul 2016 at 12:35am
Fixed the video, finally! Back to chat more in a few hours :D
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dreadpirateroberts Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Aug 2016 at 9:47am
Great answers! :)

I found it especially interesting re: the arrangements (maybe it shows how much progressive big band I've been listening to lately? :D) and the way the compromise between modal/fusion for it to end up as 'post'.

And it's interesting also how much this piece stands out compared to the rest of the album too. I'm pretty happy I stumbled across it actually - oddly enough, it was just a random youtube recommendation!


Will have another song to post tomorrow :)


Edited by dreadpirateroberts - 01 Aug 2016 at 9:48am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote js Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Aug 2016 at 11:25am
Re the arrangements: I think its worth adding that post bop pieces are more apt to have elaborate arrangements than a hard bop piece, but its not really a defining characteristic.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dreadpirateroberts Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Aug 2016 at 5:10pm
Okay, here's another piece :) 

This one feels like Hard Bop without being particularly 'driving' but I wonder if there's anything else going on that I can't pick up on as a non-musician? For instance, Empyrean Isles is a Post Bop album of course, and I considered posting One Finger Snap instead, as a clear Hard Bop piece, but thought that Oliloqui Valley might be worth a look too?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote js Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Aug 2016 at 5:32pm
Yeah, that one is right in between. I'd probably call that hard bop, but it does have those more abstract harmonies too. It could easily be tagged post bop.
To me, that's hard bop that is leaning towards post bop.

One thing to keep in mind, as the main genre tagger on the site, I have my own criteria for determining genres, but not all the different jazz sites are the same.
I notice some sites have a broader definition for hard bop. For them, almost any swing based jazz with a straight ahead rhythm is hard bop.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dreadpirateroberts Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Nov 2016 at 4:12am
Back! Sorry about the huge delay - still enjoying this :)

Okay, how about Gazzelloni on Out to Lunch?





Post? Seems like one of the tracks with a more 'bop' feel?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote js Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Nov 2016 at 5:00am
Thanks, love this album, but I will have to wait until I get home later today to hear the track.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote js Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Nov 2016 at 5:50pm
The Dolphy cut definitely gets the post bop or Avant-garde tag, but you're right, there is a lot of Parker and Gillespie on that one, as well as a good dose of Ornette too.
The 'whole new thing' thats happening on this cut is all the time changes or 'metric modulations', the brilliant drummer Roy Haynes could move all over the place and still swing. 

In today's world, that cut could be tagged 21st Century Modern, this album, along with a lot of things by Dolphy's running mates like Mingus and Chico Hamilton, could be considered forerunners of today's jazz.


Edited by js - 27 Nov 2016 at 6:39pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dreadpirateroberts Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Dec 2016 at 7:37pm
Originally posted by js js wrote:

The 'whole new thing' thats happening on this cut is all the time changes or 'metric modulations', the brilliant drummer Roy Haynes could move all over the place and still swing.


It's amazing, huh? Must take some real compartmentalizing to do that :)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dreadpirateroberts Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Dec 2016 at 7:49pm
Okay!

Got another one, from Peter Knight - this whole album of his has got a 'cool' vibe but I still wouldn't call it a 'cool' album. In this track the 'scattered' drumming, which is not a good descriptive at all, gives some of the rhythm a more 'halting' feel at times that I associate with post bop where sometimes song structure is more 'chopped' up (again, not the best descriptors perhaps lol) The beats I'm thinking of often feel like they're built around fills and improv rather than laying something down that the rest of the musicians can solo over for long stretches.

Peter Knight - Eunoia (2006)







Edited by dreadpirateroberts - 13 Dec 2016 at 7:51pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote js Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Dec 2016 at 8:10pm
Cool jazz quit being a genre back in the mid 60s, even if something is kind of 'cool', we wouldn't use the term 'cool jazz' anymore.
This cut could be used as a text book example of post bop, the rhythm swings, but in a sort of fractured way, the chord changes are abstract with the extended harmonies etc., plus a 3/4 feel a lot of times. The drummer favors Tony Williams for sure.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote liontime Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Apr 2017 at 4:45pm
Hello! I don't mean to insert myself into an old thread but I remembered looking at this thread when it was made and not having any input at the time.

But now I have a question! Speaking of the line between hard bop and post bop, I'd like to approach from the other side and see where the line between post bop and avant-garde/free jazz is.

Paul Bley's album "Paul Bley with Gary Peacock" is listed as avant-garde jazz on here and I was wondering how it got that designation as I would have personally placed it in the post bop area of things. It's not a straight forward album by any means, but it's definitely not as free as many other ECM albums are.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vk9_bByHCNo
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote liontime Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Apr 2017 at 4:48pm
Perhaps piano trios are not classified as 'bop?'
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote js Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Apr 2017 at 4:55pm
Piano trios can be anything, but let me check the album you are talking about, we have a lot of albums on here with the wrong genre tag.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote js Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Apr 2017 at 5:16pm
You're right, that one had the wrong tag, still it was hard to define. Its in between hard bop and post bop, with some fairly outside playing too. I finally tagged it as post bop.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote liontime Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Apr 2017 at 5:48pm
Thanks for the answer! I'm also curious about Ornette Coleman's first four or five albums. Why are they avant-garde rather than a bop of some sort?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote js Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Apr 2017 at 5:51pm
You read my mind, ha. I have the first two set aside to re-evaluate sometime soon. Those albums may have been avant-garde for their time, but not anymore. 
"A Love Supreme" was considered more or less avant-garde way back when.
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