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What music is more popular-jazz or prog?

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Freddie Freeloader View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Freddie Freeloader Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Apr 2011 at 11:51pm
Originally posted by Cannonball With Hat Cannonball With Hat wrote:

Jazz absolutely. Prog is very niche "genre" whereas Jazz is much much larger (and an actual genre as opposed to sub genre). Others made very good points (harmonium/darkshade) which I completely agree with.
I agree, its not fair to compare a genre to a sub genre. It would be more appropriate to ask if Jazz or Rock is more popular or else if Prog-Rock or Jazz-Fusion is more popular. In those cases I think Rock and Prog-Rock would win. As a whole though Jazz has been more popular for much much longer.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote triceratopsoil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Apr 2011 at 12:05am
It's not entirely fair to say that prog rock is a subgenre of rock; it's more like progressiveness is a trait that some rock music has.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote harmonium.ro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Apr 2011 at 4:57am
BTW progressive rock/music is often considered an extension of jazz around here and I can't really disagree. For example, the latest big poster that appeared at the parisian metro is one that is shared by four acts, each on his corner: YES, Brit Floyd (Pink Floyd cover band), the 2011 Return To Forever and George Benson. Most of the important prog concerts are held by the jazz/fusion/world music club Le Triton, and usually when I search for info about these concerts on Google, I find them discussed on jazz sites. And finally, most of the French musicians doing "progressive" stuff have a jazz education. So the idea of this post is that in France jazz and prog are not considered opposites. Even back then when the progressive movement appeared in France with Magma, if you watch TV interviews with them from 1970 they say that what they do is to mix jazz with pop music.


Edited by harmonium.ro - 25 Apr 2011 at 4:59am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Prog Geo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Apr 2011 at 9:20am
Originally posted by harmonium.ro harmonium.ro wrote:

BTW progressive rock/music is often considered an extension of jazz around here and I can't really disagree. For example, the latest big poster that appeared at the parisian metro is one that is shared by four acts, each on his corner: YES, Brit Floyd (Pink Floyd cover band), the 2011 Return To Forever and George Benson. Most of the important prog concerts are held by the jazz/fusion/world music club Le Triton, and usually when I search for info about these concerts on Google, I find them discussed on jazz sites. And finally, most of the French musicians doing "progressive" stuff have a jazz education. So the idea of this post is that in France jazz and prog are not considered opposites. Even back then when the progressive movement appeared in France with Magma, if you watch TV interviews with them from 1970 they say that what they do is to mix jazz with pop music.


I agree. That's why on PA there are pages of jazz artists (like Miles Davis). Many prog rock artists have jazz education and jazz rock/fusion is an example of the jazzy side of prog rock.


Edited by Prog Geo - 25 Apr 2011 at 9:20am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Freddie Freeloader Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Apr 2011 at 11:23am
Originally posted by triceratopsoil triceratopsoil wrote:

It's not entirely fair to say that prog rock is a subgenre of rock; it's more like progressiveness is a trait that some rock music has.
That could be sayed for most any genre... the point is though that prog is a much smaller niche than jazz. Jazz has been around for about a century now and was the most popular music in the world for about half of that time. Prog has been around for about half as long and was slightly popular for about a decade. Capital P Prog is a subgenre of rock prog-metal a subgenre of metal, jazz is a subgenre only of music.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote innervisions Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Apr 2011 at 12:13pm
Frankly, I am stunned by the question.  Jazz has incomparably more visibility and is a much bigger part of popular culture than prog has ever been. As is the case with classical music, even people who don't listen to jazz are at least well aware of its existence. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Abraxas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Apr 2011 at 12:24pm
Originally posted by innervisions innervisions wrote:

Frankly, I am stunned by the question.  Jazz has incomparably more visibility and is a much bigger part of popular culture than prog has ever been. As is the case with classical music, even people who don't listen to jazz are at least well aware of its existence. 

Your last sentence is pretty much true.

However, you have to take in account that Prog Rock, first of all is a name that all not use, and second that it's a sub-genre. Say, everybody has heard of Pink Floyd, but there's people who don't know what Prog Rock is, or wouldn't name Floyd prog rock.

But yes, like you said, as a genre Jazz is more known than Prog Rock.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote innervisions Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Apr 2011 at 12:30pm
Originally posted by Abraxas Abraxas wrote:

Originally posted by innervisions innervisions wrote:

Frankly, I am stunned by the question.  Jazz has incomparably more visibility and is a much bigger part of popular culture than prog has ever been. As is the case with classical music, even people who don't listen to jazz are at least well aware of its existence. 

Your last sentence is pretty much true.

However, you have to take in account that Prog Rock, first of all is a name that all not use, and second that it's a sub-genre. Say, everybody has heard of Pink Floyd, but there's people who don't know what Prog Rock is, or wouldn't name Floyd prog rock.

But yes, like you said, as a genre Jazz is more known than Prog Rock.

Agreed with respect to Floyd but there are still only a handful of prog rock bands enjoying that kind of popularity and most from that handful are from the 70s. Also, the snob appeal that jazz enjoys gives it a huge advantage when it comes to assimilation.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote idlero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Apr 2011 at 12:43pm
What is obvious for others is not so obvious for me, most prog lovers I know from my friends stay away from jazz.
If we take away from the equation the smooth jazz and the vocal jazz(that a lot of people non jazz listeneres have tried it at least once and would listen to Norah Jones and alikes) jazz would be still leading in numbers because it is around since so many years, but the figures will probably drop seriously
What about the 70's when prog was at the peak?
If I'm not mistaken, some of the best jazz artists can only dream to fill stadiums or reach the selling figures of the bestselling prog albums

I think the problem with a lot of the fusion music is that it's extremely predictable, it's a rock rhythm and the solos all play the same stuff and they play it over and over again ...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Abraxas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Apr 2011 at 12:47pm
Originally posted by idlero idlero wrote:

What is obvious for others is not so obvious for me, most prog lovers I know from my friends stay away from jazz.
If we take away from the equation the smooth jazz and the vocal jazz(that a lot of people non jazz listeneres have tried it at least once and would listen to Norah Jones and alikes) jazz would be still leading in numbers because it is around since so many years, but the figures will probably drop seriously
What about the 70's when prog was at the peak?
If I'm not mistaken, some of the best jazz artists can only dream to fill stadiums or reach the selling figures of the bestselling prog albums


Yes, but in terms of known me and innervisions have a point. EVERYBODY knows about the term 'jazz', has heard it on a commercial, on a movie, the typical black and white photography, etc. Of course, they don't have a clue of what it's really about, or can't name even a musician.

However, in terms of popularity meaning album sells and concert sells, there you might have a good point. (which I know about, but wasn't talking about it)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Freddie Freeloader Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Apr 2011 at 4:18pm
Originally posted by idlero idlero wrote:

What is obvious for others is not so obvious for me, most prog lovers I know from my friends stay away from jazz.
If we take away from the equation the smooth jazz and the vocal jazz(that a lot of people non jazz listeneres have tried it at least once and would listen to Norah Jones and alikes) jazz would be still leading in numbers because it is around since so many years, but the figures will probably drop seriously
What about the 70's when prog was at the peak?
If I'm not mistaken, some of the best jazz artists can only dream to fill stadiums or reach the selling figures of the bestselling prog albums

not now but when jazz was at its peak of popularity (20s-40s) it had just as many if not more followers.
the fact that jazz of that time was not played to huge stadiums has more to do with advances in amplification technology than it does with popularity
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sean Trane Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Apr 2011 at 5:42pm

Originally posted by idlero idlero wrote:

What is obvious for others is not so obvious for me, most prog lovers I know from my friends stay away from jazz.
If we take away from the equation the smooth jazz and the vocal jazz(that a lot of people non jazz listeneres have tried it at least once and would listen to Norah Jones and alikes) jazz would be still leading in numbers because it is around since so many years, but the figures will probably drop seriously
What about the 70's when prog was at the peak?
If I'm not mistaken, some of the best jazz artists can only dream to fill stadiums or reach the selling figures of the bestselling prog albums

 

1- Well over 80% of the progheads I know are jazzheads or JR/Fheads.... Only the more symphonic-minded (read close-minded) dislike a bit of jazz in their music....

 

2- If Miles and trane were alive today, they'd fill arenas no problem

 

3- Most people attending Genesis or Tull concerts don't assimilate the band's music to "prog" or even know of prog as a style... it's also unfair to compare the 60's scene to the 70's industry/business... the finabncial means were quite different



Edited by Sean Trane - 30 Apr 2011 at 5:44pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote innervisions Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Apr 2011 at 9:39pm
Well, Hugues has given the answer I would have. I would also put a certain kind of prog metalheads, the ones who listen mainly to melodic prog metal, in that category who don't like jazz.  But it would be very strange for a Canterbury/fusion loving proghead to profess dislike for jazz.  And I thought we were talking about either overall popularity or popularity in the present day.  In both cases, jazz is the answer.  When jazz was at its commercial peak, the music business had not yet grown to the size it would but some of the landmark jazz albums invaded the Billboards, like Time Out. Jazz was the prog of the 50s.  But that the music business became bigger is on account of Beatles and not prog. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dick Heath Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jul 2011 at 11:46am
You see far more jazz specialist  stores/shops than prog record specialists - even my local prog specialist Ultima Thule has an ~80:20 split between  progressive/related musics and jazz related . HMV's flagship store in London's Oxford Street, has separate sections for jazz/blues and classical recordings but buries the prog amongst the pop and rock**. My guess that audiences for gigs are about the same, the biggest and most popular of either genre pull in the numbers.  I think RTF and Dream Theater have filled O2 in Greenwich, while the others have to settle for much smaller venues. However, a number of  top rank American jazz acts can fill the smaller Barbican on summer tours (note I'm sticking to the London area) even at inflated prices. (Perhaps a subject for a separate thread: do American jazz artists treat the European fans as milkcows, asking for far more than they would in the USA or Canada?)
 
 
** When I was SIngapore on business in 2000, I went searching for Kazumi Watanabe recordings at the local branch of HMV, and found them easily in their jazz record dept.


Edited by Dick Heath - 14 Jul 2011 at 12:03pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote idlero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jul 2011 at 2:04pm
Jazz is for clubs not for stadiums.
I think the problem with a lot of the fusion music is that it's extremely predictable, it's a rock rhythm and the solos all play the same stuff and they play it over and over again ...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote darkshade Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jul 2011 at 4:43pm
Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:


 

2- If Miles and trane were alive today, they'd fill arenas no problem

 




I believe it. Especially Miles. Depending on what direction Trane would have taken, him too.

I always wondered if Trane would have went in the fusion direction had he lived into the 70s...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote harmonium.ro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jul 2011 at 6:36am
Originally posted by Dick Heath Dick Heath wrote:

(Perhaps a subject for a separate thread: do American jazz artists treat the European fans as milkcows, asking for far more than they would in the USA or Canada?)
 


Good question. AFAIK ticket prices are set by promoters according to local costs, which vastly overwhelm the artist fee in the total. The US is much cheaper than Europe in what concerts are concerned just like it is with CDs, food, rent, basically everything.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote harmonium.ro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jul 2011 at 6:38am
Originally posted by idlero idlero wrote:

Jazz is for clubs not for stadiums.


Contemporary jazz yes, but more or less classic jazz is for concert halls, square/park concerts. Better than prog anyway.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote snobb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jul 2011 at 6:55am
Originally posted by harmonium.ro harmonium.ro wrote:

Originally posted by idlero idlero wrote:

Jazz is for clubs not for stadiums.


Contemporary jazz yes, but more or less classic jazz is for concert halls, square/park concerts. Better than prog anyway.

And funk jazz- I regularly visit annual jazz fest in Klaipeda where they specializes on funk jazz or funk artists. The scene is placed in central town's square and every of three nights there come few thousand (!) fans to listen and to dance near the scene. It works perfectly Smile

BTW I saw there some great artists during few last years - Tower Of Power,Earth,Wind & Fire, Marilyn Mazur, Maceo Parker,Incognito,etc. (free entrance is a standard as well Wink)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sean Trane Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jul 2011 at 7:04am
Originally posted by Dick Heath Dick Heath wrote:

even my local prog specialist Ultima Thule has an ~80:20 split between  progressive/related musics and jazz related
 
 
 
 My guess that audiences for gigs are about the same, the biggest and most popular of either genre pull in the numbers. 
 
 However, a number of  top rank American jazz acts can fill the smaller Barbican on summer tours (note I'm sticking to the London area) even at inflated prices. (Perhaps a subject for a separate thread: do American jazz artists treat the European fans as milkcows, asking for far more than they would in the USA or Canada?)
 
 
some jazz festivals in Europer can attract huge (well all things considered abnd relative) audiences, like Rotterdam's North Sea Jazz Festival, but indeed they've got the names to draw that public
 
 
As for treating European fans like milking cow, it's not really up the jazzers or their managers , but more like the organizing mafias that are driving the prices up.... of course the artistes see to how big the crowds they are playing to.... so they can always announce their privces, and the organizers always have a wide array of choice for their festivals
 
I'll post a Dinant Jazz Festival link below... take a look at the line-up and remember that Dinant is a 5 000 people city  (birthplace of Adolphe Sax, mind you) some 80 km south of Brussels in the Ardennes.
http://www.dinantjazznights.org/program.asp
 
Amazing, uhShockedStar???  Especially the mondayApprove!!! (may go to it, if workload permits) 
OK, the place is filled with holidaying (notoriously-cheap) Hollanders in July (statistically the rainiest month of the year), but they're not garanteed to make a fortune
 
 
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