What music is more popular-jazz or prog? |
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Freddie Freeloader
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triceratopsoil
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It's not entirely fair to say that prog rock is a subgenre of rock; it's more like progressiveness is a trait that some rock music has.
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harmonium.ro
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BTW progressive rock/music is often considered an extension of jazz around here and I can't really disagree. For example, the latest big poster that appeared at the parisian metro is one that is shared by four acts, each on his corner: YES, Brit Floyd (Pink Floyd cover band), the 2011 Return To Forever and George Benson. Most of the important prog concerts are held by the jazz/fusion/world music club Le Triton, and usually when I search for info about these concerts on Google, I find them discussed on jazz sites. And finally, most of the French musicians doing "progressive" stuff have a jazz education. So the idea of this post is that in France jazz and prog are not considered opposites. Even back then when the progressive movement appeared in France with Magma, if you watch TV interviews with them from 1970 they say that what they do is to mix jazz with pop music.
Edited by harmonium.ro - 25 Apr 2011 at 4:59am |
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Prog Geo
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I agree. That's why on PA there are pages of jazz artists (like Miles Davis). Many prog rock artists have jazz education and jazz rock/fusion is an example of the jazzy side of prog rock. Edited by Prog Geo - 25 Apr 2011 at 9:20am |
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Freddie Freeloader
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That could be sayed for most any genre... the point is though that prog is a much smaller niche than jazz. Jazz has been around for about a century now and was the most popular music in the world for about half of that time. Prog has been around for about half as long and was slightly popular for about a decade. Capital P Prog is a subgenre of rock prog-metal a subgenre of metal, jazz is a subgenre only of music.
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innervisions
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Frankly, I am stunned by the question. Jazz has incomparably more visibility and is a much bigger part of popular culture than prog has ever been. As is the case with classical music, even people who don't listen to jazz are at least well aware of its existence.
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Abraxas
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Your last sentence is pretty much true. However, you have to take in account that Prog Rock, first of all is a name that all not use, and second that it's a sub-genre. Say, everybody has heard of Pink Floyd, but there's people who don't know what Prog Rock is, or wouldn't name Floyd prog rock. But yes, like you said, as a genre Jazz is more known than Prog Rock.
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innervisions
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Agreed with respect to Floyd but there are still only a handful of prog rock bands enjoying that kind of popularity and most from that handful are from the 70s. Also, the snob appeal that jazz enjoys gives it a huge advantage when it comes to assimilation.
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idlero
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What is obvious for others is not so obvious for me, most prog lovers I know from my friends stay away from jazz.
If we take away from the equation the smooth jazz and the vocal jazz(that a lot of people non jazz listeneres have tried it at least once and would listen to Norah Jones and alikes) jazz would be still leading in numbers because it is around since so many years, but the figures will probably drop seriously What about the 70's when prog was at the peak? If I'm not mistaken, some of the best jazz artists can only dream to fill stadiums or reach the selling figures of the bestselling prog albums |
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I think the problem with a lot of the fusion music is that it's extremely predictable, it's a rock rhythm and the solos all play the same stuff and they play it over and over again ...
Ken Burns |
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Abraxas
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Yes, but in terms of known me and innervisions have a point. EVERYBODY knows about the term 'jazz', has heard it on a commercial, on a movie, the typical black and white photography, etc. Of course, they don't have a clue of what it's really about, or can't name even a musician. However, in terms of popularity meaning album sells and concert sells, there you might have a good point. (which I know about, but wasn't talking about it)
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Freddie Freeloader
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the fact that jazz of that time was not played to huge stadiums has more to do with advances in amplification technology than it does with popularity
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Sean Trane
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1- Well over 80% of the progheads I know are jazzheads or JR/Fheads.... Only the more symphonic-minded (read close-minded) dislike a bit of jazz in their music.... 2- If Miles and trane were alive today, they'd fill arenas no problem 3- Most people attending Genesis or Tull concerts don't assimilate the band's music to "prog" or even know of prog as a style... it's also unfair to compare the 60's scene to the 70's industry/business... the finabncial means were quite different Edited by Sean Trane - 30 Apr 2011 at 5:44pm |
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innervisions
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Well, Hugues has given the answer I would have. I would also put a certain kind of prog metalheads, the ones who listen mainly to melodic prog metal, in that category who don't like jazz. But it would be very strange for a Canterbury/fusion loving proghead to profess dislike for jazz. And I thought we were talking about either overall popularity or popularity in the present day. In both cases, jazz is the answer. When jazz was at its commercial peak, the music business had not yet grown to the size it would but some of the landmark jazz albums invaded the Billboards, like Time Out. Jazz was the prog of the 50s. But that the music business became bigger is on account of Beatles and not prog.
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Dick Heath
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You see far more jazz specialist stores/shops than prog record specialists - even my local prog specialist Ultima Thule has an ~80:20 split between progressive/related musics and jazz related . HMV's flagship store in London's Oxford Street, has separate sections for jazz/blues and classical recordings but buries the prog amongst the pop and rock**. My guess that audiences for gigs are about the same, the biggest and most popular of either genre pull in the numbers. I think RTF and Dream Theater have filled O2 in Greenwich, while the others have to settle for much smaller venues. However, a number of top rank American jazz acts can fill the smaller Barbican on summer tours (note I'm sticking to the London area) even at inflated prices. (Perhaps a subject for a separate thread: do American jazz artists treat the European fans as milkcows, asking for far more than they would in the USA or Canada?)
** When I was SIngapore on business in 2000, I went searching for Kazumi Watanabe recordings at the local branch of HMV, and found them easily in their jazz record dept. Edited by Dick Heath - 14 Jul 2011 at 12:03pm |
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idlero
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Jazz is for clubs not for stadiums.
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I think the problem with a lot of the fusion music is that it's extremely predictable, it's a rock rhythm and the solos all play the same stuff and they play it over and over again ...
Ken Burns |
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darkshade
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I believe it. Especially Miles. Depending on what direction Trane would have taken, him too. I always wondered if Trane would have went in the fusion direction had he lived into the 70s... |
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harmonium.ro
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Good question. AFAIK ticket prices are set by promoters according to local costs, which vastly overwhelm the artist fee in the total. The US is much cheaper than Europe in what concerts are concerned just like it is with CDs, food, rent, basically everything. |
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harmonium.ro
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Contemporary jazz yes, but more or less classic jazz is for concert halls, square/park concerts. Better than prog anyway. |
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snobb
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And funk jazz- I regularly visit annual jazz fest in Klaipeda where they specializes on funk jazz or funk artists. The scene is placed in central town's square and every of three nights there come few thousand (!) fans to listen and to dance near the scene. It works perfectly . BTW I saw there some great artists during few last years - Tower Of Power,Earth,Wind & Fire, Marilyn Mazur, Maceo Parker,Incognito,etc. (free entrance is a standard as well )
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Sean Trane
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some jazz festivals in Europer can attract huge (well all things considered abnd relative) audiences, like Rotterdam's North Sea Jazz Festival, but indeed they've got the names to draw that public
As for treating European fans like milking cow, it's not really up the jazzers or their managers , but more like the organizing mafias that are driving the prices up.... of course the artistes see to how big the crowds they are playing to.... so they can always announce their privces, and the organizers always have a wide array of choice for their festivals
I'll post a Dinant Jazz Festival link below... take a look at the line-up and remember that Dinant is a 5 000 people city (birthplace of Adolphe Sax, mind you) some 80 km south of Brussels in the Ardennes.
Amazing, uh??? Especially the monday!!! (may go to it, if workload permits)
OK, the place is filled with holidaying (notoriously-cheap) Hollanders in July (statistically the rainiest month of the year), but they're not garanteed to make a fortune
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BTW: I thought that the UT shop was or is in the process of closing...
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my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicted musicians to crazy ones....
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